Here we go again- Electricity!!!!

Bob Bancroft · Feb 5, 2013

Visiting our son in a new house squeezed into a development in Mooresville NC. He has a used "Shop Smith" which claims to be 2 HP. When we tried to run it, it balked at starting, and tripped the 20A 110V breaker occasionally.
If I was home, along with having the motor checked out(maybe just a capacitor) I would change the whole set-up over to 220V. But he would have to put in the receptacle, in this rented house. And I'm guessing the switch in the machine is single pole.
I didn't realize until afterwards that his only outlet in the garage was GFCI. Yet that never tripped. I thought anything of any size, particularly with a motor, had enough leakage that it wouldn't work with GFCI. So is it possible this motor is tight enough it might not trip a GFCI?
The receptacle right NEXT to the kitchen sink is not GFCI! The one by the downstairs bathroom sink is, as well as the one in the garage, but the outside ones, as well as the recep. by the upstairs bathroom sink are not GFCI.
I'm confused, unless, this place got wired haphazardly, and/or do I recall from somewhere that regular receptacles can be "piggy backed" off a GFCI recep?
I guess I'll recommend he get the motor checked over.
He's not comfortable with doing any wiring. So that will stay the same for now.
Thoughts?

Randysouthmississippi · Feb 5, 2013

Yes GFCI outlets can be piggybacked. Im not sure how many down stream can be added.

donjr · Feb 5, 2013

Bob, most of the receptacles in my house are piggybacked to one GFI. The cost of one GFI isn't too bad, but for everyone to be a GFI would add hundreds of dollars to a home, so the first outlet in a circuit is a GFI, and any problem an outlet past it will cause it to open the sircuit. So, each leg has a GFI, then just regular outlets past it.

Vito · Feb 5, 2013

Bob,

I have seen them tied in to the GfCI below the panel in the basement.Real pain to have to reset.When we build houses we don't do that.

Vito

Walt Davies · Feb 5, 2013

The circuit he is using may be tied to something else and when he adds the shop smith its just enough to trip the breaker in the box panel.
Walt

ivan in michigan · Feb 5, 2013

On the Shopsmith is a speed control dial on the front. DO NOT turn this unless the saw is running as it bends the forks inside. If this is set to the fast speed it will cause the motor to hum and may kick the breaker on the circuit. You can manualy turn the blade with the saw unplugged and turn the dial to a lower speed. I bent the fork on mine that is how I know about that and I have kicked the breaker when the saw was set to high.

paul · Feb 5, 2013

Gotta be GFIC here in my part of mn, out in the shop too. Heck of a thing if it trips out your Diesel engine heater, or the 6hp (yes I know a 115v Craftsman is not really 6hp but just wat it says on the label) air compressor kicks out, but it is what is rules are rules.

Actually my compressor works well on 20 amp breakers, but it will kick 15 amp breakers and or GFIC at times.

Paul

MarkB_MI · Feb 5, 2013

A $10 GFCI outlet tester will tell for sure if the kitchen outlets are protected. It's quite possible they are tied into the bathroom, which is really dumb but saves a few bucks.

The issue he's having is not the GFCI. It's voltage drop, either because the wiring to the garage outlet is too small, too long, or going through too many connections. Time is money for electricians, and it takes only a few seconds to backwire an outlet versus a minute or two to install the wires properly under screws. Monitoring the voltage at the outlet at startup will confirm if there's voltage drop, but it will take an electrician to fix it.

Bob Bancroft · Feb 5, 2013

That explains why they want you to slow it way down before you shut it off. Apparently start up power is so marginal, that's done for starting purposes.

Bob Bancroft · Feb 5, 2013

Greetings from the sunny south!
I'm remembering a recent comment that you had such a bad experience with a WD45, you junked it. Having grown up on one, I have to come to their defense, and say it was its life, not its manufacture, that was at fault! But maybe driving one in my youth is why my hips bother now, and I walk crooked!
Stay warm!

Bob Bancroft · Feb 5, 2013

Most of the houses in this development are built on slabs. This house has natural gas fired, forced air heat, trying to push it down from the attic space above two floors!
The gas fired water heater is in the far corner of the attached, unheated, uninsulated garage! It takes more water to finally get hot water in the upstairs bath, than it does to take a shower.
Yet it has an electric stove.
The 200A service is buried in the partially sheet-rocked garage. The garage recep. is three feet from the panel, and the downstairs bath is just beyond that.
So I'm going to guess the outside recep's are tied to the one in the garage, and the kitchen ones are tied to the one in the bath.

Adirondack case guy · Feb 5, 2013

Bob,
You Can install a GFCI, and extend the circuit to down line recepticals., much the same as a "power beyond port in a hyd. valve. I have a 50's Shop Smith and it trips my 20A breaker quite often. I think the vaiiable speed belt/clutch, takes a lot of power to run.
Loren, the Acg.

Mark - IN. · Feb 5, 2013

Absolutely correct. The GFC acts as the circuit breaker for the rest of the recepticles in series AFTER the GFC.

What cannot do, is wire multiple GFCs to the same circuit in series. I'm not sure about parallel or why anyone would try that, but definately not in series where one will trip the rest the second one tries to use one. Saw it happen, pulled them all out except for one, the one remaining between the series of recepticles on the line side and the load center circuit breaker.

Mark

NEsota · Feb 5, 2013

As someone who is electrically challenged I am confused by this GFI discussion. I have not understood that the GFI tripped because of high load. My limited knowledge caused me to think that, if the current flow in the black and the white wires was equal then the GFI was happy and did not break. If different amounts of current flowed, even for a 50th of a second, in the wires, because of an unwanted ground or other voltage source then the circuit tripped.

Vito · Feb 5, 2013

Bob,

It wasn't horrible just real uncomfortable.I would consider a diesel if I could get a good buy on it so I guess it wasn't all that bad.

Enjoy the warmth.

Vito

huntingreen2day2 · Feb 5, 2013

If wired correctly to recent codes the kitchen receptacles cannot be wired to the bathroom circuit. Code requires 2 20 circuits for the kitchen and has for many years. Also requires 20 amp circuit for the bathrooms. Outside plugs can no longer be on one of these circuits. bathroom lights can be on the bath circuits but nothing can be on the kitchen circuit but the kitchen or dinning room receptacles.

huntingreen2day2 · Feb 5, 2013

The NEC allows special equipment on dedicated circuits not to be GFCI protected. In this case you must use a receptacle that only gives you the ability to plug up one device.

ss55 · Feb 5, 2013

Thank you NEsota! I'm having trouble following this discussion too. I've never seen a circuit breaker and a GFI trip together. Don't they protect against completely different hazards?

Circuit breaker - too much current.

GFI - current leakage.

The discussion seems to be mostly about the GFI question.

Walt Davies · Feb 5, 2013

When I bought this old, old house it had been updated to 220 200 amp service just before I bought it.
I put in a 220 outlet in the shop for my table saw there was a breaker panel out there so I figured everything was ok. Famouse last words.
I plugged in ten turned it on, Bummer, all the light went dim and the saw just hummed.
I called the power company. The guy looked on the computer and found my problem was it still had the old antique transformer on the pole. It wasn't enought to run my saw.
Next day a new transformer an Viola it worked like a charm.
Walt

Bob Bancroft · Feb 5, 2013

Sorry guys. In this case the breaker tripped, the GFCI did not. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. It's just that in other cases I've seen, and heard, where GFCIs are so sensitive, they'll trip with something like a refrigerator.
I tried to combine questions and issues because I hate to see my son get this thing so it will work, just to have the GFCI kick him out.
I don't believe having a breaker trip on any regular basis is acceptable. My solution would be, as I said, is any motor this big should be 220V.

Robert NC · Feb 6, 2013

Bob they are throwing up so many buildings here in Mooresville It is a wonder that any of them are wired right. Used to be such a nice small town. Pasture across the road from me is now groing apartments/houses.

barnE · Feb 6, 2013

Not going to look in code book, but 2hp seems like too much for most 20 amp circuits. Think you should be wired 25 amps or more. Dave, the retired electrician, master and contractor. If you was paying me I would open the code book. Sorry

barnE · Feb 6, 2013

Not going to look in code book, but 2hp seems like too much for most 20 amp circuits. Think you should be wired 25 amps or more. Dave, the retired electrician, master and contractor. If you was paying me I would open the code book. Sorry

Here we go again- Electricity!!!!

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