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o.t. traffic ticket / NEED ADVICE

H

HUSKY

Member
I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO SOUND LIKE A CHRISTMAS STORY BUT, IT TRUE. MY MOTHER WAS ON HER WAY TO MY HOUSE IN PA CHRISTMAS EVE ON THE WAY A WINTER STORM(SNOW SQUALL) SUDDENLY BLEW IN CAUSING A WHITE OUT SHE COULD NOT SEE WENT OVER THE GUARD RAIL HIT A TREE ABOUT 15-FEET OVER THE GROUND AND WENT DOWN AN EMBANKMENT ABOUT 50 FT HAD TO BE CUT OUT OF THE CAR. CARS TOTALED MOMS OK ALL BRUSED AND BATTERED. CAR FOLLOWING HER NEVER STOPPED BUT CALLED 911 (FIRE CHIEF SAID NOBODY WAS THERE AND FOUND HER BECAUSE SHE WAS BLOWING THE HORN OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE FOUND HER)

NOW COME THE PART I NEED ADVICE ON PA STATE TROOPER CHARGED HER W/ DRIVING TO FAST FOR CONDITIONS ????? WE ARE FIGHTING IT HAVE A HEARING IN FEB DO I NEED AN ATTORNEY TO GO @ 350.00 AN HOUR ????

I AM THANKFUL IT WAS NOT WORSE
THANK YOU FOR THE ADVICE MANY GOOD PEOPLE HERE

DAVE M.
 
first; turn off the cap lock; it makes you seem to be yelling!
have you spoken to county attorney? i've represented myself everytime in court and had fairly good luck. the county attorney has the power to do lots of things; start there first.
 
Why are you shouting?
Was the car equipped with four tires with the mountain and snowflake symbol?
Whose fault was it the vehicle was on the highway in a storm and went off the road?
 
Were it in Texas,I would say either use an attorney of ask for jury if she defends herself. From time to time a one horse town gives traffic tickets to make up budget shortage. I have never seen a judge dismiss a ticket eventhough the defendant presented a slam dunk case. Another option(in Texas)is ask for deffered ajudication where you pay "administrative fee"equal to fine and get probation so violation doesn't go on your record. She needs to know beforehand wherether a family member or friend can speak in her place in court unless she is comfortable with it.
 
Accidents happen. I don't believe the "all knowing" cops need to add a fine to EVERY accident.

Oh well, armchair cop work seems to pay off for the local precinct though. Every action is worthy of a fine in the new world. :cry:
 
Everyday at the start of their shifts the police have a meeting and go over their agendas for their shift. They need so many tickets for a given time. If your mom is okay and you got to bring her home your best bet would be to just pay the ticket is the way I see it. But I don't know all the details. My dad backed into his own car with his truck and insurance company wanted a police report, he got a warning ticket. To me a ticket is a minor thing we can have to pay a fine for.
 
Retired Farmer
That rule only applies IF YOU ARE INVOLVED in the accident.
And John B
Your opening statement is pure unadulterated HOGWASH
WJ
 
Were there other accidents that same evening? I was in court observing, and the plaintiff reported how many accidents occured, including a police vehicle. The judge dismissed the case.

Rich
 
I heard a Deputy Sheriff say once that they don't have a quota for tickets, they can write as many as they want.
 
She should probably just go to court and tell the judge the truth and IF she has a good driving record he'll probably let her off.Driving too fast for conditions is questionable now if she had gotten a ticket for faling to maintain control of the vehicle then the cop would have her dead to right.
 
Go to court the first time. Plead not guilty. 50/50 chance the arresting cop will not show up in court and they will have to dismiss.

If not, tell them the truth. Might be a good Idea to get a list of all the other accidents that night in the county. Plead "mother nature", act of God.

Gene
 
How much is the cost of fine and court fee compared to the cost of the rescue squad (paid by the county?), your mother's medical costs (paid by her insurance?) and replacing the car (paid by her insurance?)? She may not want to accept it, but it may be in your mother's to get the traffic ticket.

Let your mother contact an attorney or two on her own. They will probably tell her to just pay the ticket and try to drive more carefully in the future or to stay home in bad weather. That accident could easily have been a lot worse.
 
Gene when was the last time you went to court about a ticket?? Not to long ago my son got one and no cop showed but he had to either plead one way or the other. He did the not guilty thing so continued for a month. The next month same thing he had to do one or the other or have a lawyer he did the guilty thing this time to a tune of $250. Not sure how it is up your way but here the system is broken
 
(quoted from post at 20:51:25 01/22/13) Gene when was the last time you went to court about a ticket?? Not to long ago my son got one and no cop showed but he had to either plead one way or the other. He did the not guilty thing so continued for a month. The next month same thing he had to do one or the other or have a lawyer he did the guilty thing this time to a tune of $250. Not sure how it is up your way but here the system is broken
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The system is broken. Guilty as charged. Continuence only delays the fact. Pay the fine, move on. She is lucky she got away with her life.
 
Fighting it is like rolling the dice. A good lawyer might get her off but will probably charge more than the fine.

Go to court on her own and if the cop doesn"t show up she gets off, if he does show up she pays the fine plus court costs.

And yeah, if she lost control of her car then she was driving too fast for conditions.
 
I received the same ticket about 15 years ago. It was a cold snowy January day, hit a drift of snow in the road and ended up upside down on the shoulder. I was only going 45 in a 55 and the rest of the road was clear. As I watched my truck get hauled away on a flatbed the trooper was handing me the ticket for "speed not reasonable for conditions".

I was initially angry, but eventually realized he was correct. If I was driving slower the accident would not have happened. If I had been more unlucky I could have injured/killed myself or someone in an oncoming car. I paid the fine and now drive slower in potentially dangerous conditions.

Your mom should consider herself lucky/blessed to be alive and that no one else got hurt either. Pay the fine and move on.

Hope this helps.
 
Going to work one morning I looked down to check my gauges and heard tires squealing. I looked up to see everyone else stopping. I rear ended the car in front of me. I was going 35-40 in a 35 MPH zone, had my set belt on, no other violations but got a ticket for failure to stop within assured distance. Kinda hard to argue that one. that was a crappy morning. Sometimes they have to have someone at fault or a ticket issued for insurance reasons.
 
You may or may not want to do this, but if her record is pretty good, just go into court, be honest, and tell the judge she just wanted her day in court, was probably guilty as charged, and plead on the mercy of the court. The last ticket I got, I did that, and the judge threw me out with a $15 court cost- no points, no fine. Getting a lawyer just makes her look guilty and will waste a lot of money on some fool lawyer.
 
I don't think you need a 250 $/hour Philadelphia lawyer, but you do need to talk to someone with knowledge of how this particular court operates. That might be a local lawyer, but it could be anyone who deals with this court on a regular basis. It could even be the trooper who gave your mom the ticket.

Here in Michigan, there is a scam that the local courts run that benefits both the violator and the local government: If you have a reasonably clean record, almost any minor infraction can be bargained down to "impeding traffic". This violation carries no points, but has a nice fine that goes into the local coffers. There might be a similar deal available in PA.

Before fighting the ticket, you need to consider what the stakes are. If Momma is in danger of losing her license, she really doesn't have any choice but to fight it. If the infraction carries enough points to cause her insurance to go up, then it also makes sense to fight it. On the other hand, if the worst thing she'll suffer is a fine and a couple of points, then it's probably not worth fighting.
 
The last ticket I got I fraught it and AAA paid the lawyer fees and fine even tho I was charged with a lesser charge,,, Exceeding 55 in a 55MPH zone...

I did not even have to go to court the lawyer handled it and sent me a bill,,, I forwarded the bill to AAA they sent me a check...
 
Husky's question got me wondering, how much does a traffic accident with injuries cost the county to clean up?

This accident required a fire department rescue squad (four people minimum?), a state trooper, an ambulance (driver and EMT?), and a tow truck to recover the car and haul it to an impound yard. The fine from a traffic ticket won't come close to recovering those costs.
 
I'm told that today the officer always writes a ticket and when your in a single car accident you get a ticket. It's a way of assigning official fault to someone to make insurance claims and potential legal claims easier. I had a single car accident while slowing to avoid traffic on a bridge that happened to have ice on it. No where else had ice that morning and I had no reason to suspect that bridge did either. Same charge--driving too fast for conditions. Turns out traffic was stopping because 2 other cars had spun out on the other side of that bridge. Neither of them hit anyone else either but the officer said everyone was getting tickets. He further stated if I showed up in court they'd drop the ticket. Not quite that easy. The judge wanted a letter from my insurance company saying they'd paid me for my claim and I had to return to court a couple months later to show him that letter before he dropped the ticket. Why they cared if the insurance company paid me I don't know but I do know not to argue with a judge. Even though I didn't get a ticket my insurance rates went way up as rate increase is based on how much they pay out. Good luck.
 
(quoted from post at 18:16:09 01/22/13) Everyday at the start of their shifts the police have a meeting and go over their agendas for their shift. They need so many tickets for a given time. If your mom is okay and you got to bring her home your best bet would be to just pay the ticket is the way I see it. But I don't know all the details. My dad backed into his own car with his truck and insurance company wanted a police report, he got a warning ticket. To me a ticket is a minor thing we can have to pay a fine for.
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John B please post your source.
 
I saw a story in the paper where a guy said a couch fell off a pickup and he hit it with his car. He didn't see the couch fall off, he just hit a couch in the road. Might have been at night.

He was complaining that the police gave him a ticket for driving too fast for conditions, said he was going under the speed limit.

After thinking about it, I realized the police was right. If there is something in the road, I should be able to see it and stop in time. To be safe. Even at night.

Not counting deer jumping out in front of me.
 

Ditto...Pay the ticket..she was driving too fast for conditions and Failed to control her vehicle..

Eventually, about everyone will get a ticket..it is not the end of the world..

Black Ice can (and does) form on bridges first..and can be on the bridges when nowhere else too..I have hit my share in way too many different types of vehicles..can put Skid-Marks in your Short, I can tell ya..!!

Ron..
 
What a bunch of Bullschnit JohnB! 15 years of doing that job, none of my shifts, EVER had that conversation!
What our Dept. had was a loose expectation that each Deputy averaged close to at least 1 traffic ticket per day worked over a month. That however was again averaged by the amount of people working: bottom line is some guys like working traffic and write more traffic violations, so guys like me that detested working traffic could actually write maybe 10 a year and everyone was happy.
That having been said, technically speaking if you were driving too fast to stop when the storm blew in, or the deer ran out, or the kid ran out then you were driving too fast...but realistically some cops just don't have any common sense (like some posters here) or compassion and just love writing tickets...sounds to me like with the conditions described, the fact that there was only one car involved so no need to assign blame, and no serious injury, it was a chickenschnit ticket.
Advice: Go to court with intent of pleading not guilty, if it's like NY they will have you meet with an ADA who will offer a reduced charge, or recommend to the Judge that it be dismissed. This of course is based upon thesupposition that Mom doesn't have a ton of violations. here in NY you would prolly just end up paying the Court Surcharge. No Attorney needed.!
 
(quoted from post at 18:16:09 01/22/13) [b:33c145efd5]Everyday at the start of their shifts the police have a meeting and go over their agendas for their shift. They need so many tickets for a given time.[/b:33c145efd5]
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I was a cop for over 20 years. What you wrote is horse puckey. Yes, you need to have enough tickets at the end of the month to show you are actually doing your job, but there's no morning meetings outlining any "agenda". You watch too much TV.

As far as giving the ticket to an old lady in a white out, it used to be that you could put that down to environmental conditions. The insurance companies in my state complained about that for years. Eventually the accident reports got changed and you couldn't use environmental factors any more. So then we were using the "Other human error" box for a while after that and in cases like this would annotate something along the lines of "Op V-1 became disoriented during white out conditions and was unable to bring V1-1 to safe halt before leaving roadway." or something to that effect. Well, the insurance companies and bean counters nixed that idea too, so that option disappeared. At the end when I was getting ready to retire the only non-ticketable accidents were car-deer type accidents. Yes, it's about revenue- for the insurance companies- and no, in many cases the cop has little discretion in whether or not a ticket is issued.

In this case, I would first talk to the DA or whoever prosecutes these matters and see if a reduction or dismissal could be had. If not, I'd ask for a jury trial.
 
(quoted from post at 18:17:32 01/22/13) What about the car following her? You are not supposed to leave the scene of an accident.
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You aren't supposed to leave the scene of an accident YOU are involved in.
 
Get a copy of her driving record and if she hasn't had any speeding tickets or any accidents lately she may get probabion bfore judgement. Hal
 
(quoted from post at 20:08:00 01/22/13) Husky's question got me wondering, how much does a traffic accident with injuries cost the county to clean up?

This accident required a fire department rescue squad (four people minimum?), a state trooper, an ambulance (driver and EMT?), and a tow truck to recover the car and haul it to an impound yard. The fine from a traffic ticket won't come close to recovering those costs.
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I don;t know how it works where you live, but here you pay the tow bill and the rescue squad bills you and your insurance co. The fire co and Trooper are paid for by the taxpayers.
 
Like it or not, in this day and age you wreck you will get ticketed and you will likely lose. Cops are under orders to write you up for something. Favorite son was told that by a New York state judge. He hit a patch of black ice and flipped into a ditch. He luckly was un-injured but his car was totaled. The cop showed up and called a wrecker. Son went before the judge and was fined $275 for failure to control and then New York knocked him an additional $475 in surcharges. Don't like it? hand over your license until you do.
 
(quoted from post at 05:46:00 01/23/13) Like it or not, in this day and age you wreck you will get ticketed and you will likely lose. Cops are under orders to write you up for something. Favorite son was told that by a New York state judge. He hit a patch of black ice and flipped into a ditch. He luckly was un-injured but his car was totaled. The cop showed up and called a wrecker. Son went before the judge and was fined $275 for failure to control and then New York knocked him an additional $475 in surcharges. Don't like it? hand over your license until you do.
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About seven years ago I ran off the interstate wrecking some guard rail, and all of the cops that stopped apparently disobeyed their orders.
 
I am months from completing 22 years as an officer. Part of what you read below is factual, some is not. Reality is this. You claim your mom went "over" the rail. If this were indeed true, how fast do you really believe she was going? My experience tells me more than 45 miles per hour. If she was in a brief snow squal, the road would not have been iced to the point of losing control. There would have been plenty of time to slow to accommodate the conditions.
Attorneys are only after your money. You will spend more on some goofball trying to get you out than you will just paying the ticket providing the driver has a clean record.
Officers do not have daily meetings. In fact I walk out my door of my home and start work. If I'm lucky, I get to the department at some point to warm up and use the restroom. You gotta love the television, if it was that easy, we would have no crime.
As far as the tickets and accidents, you can thank your insurance companies for that. Purdue University in Indiana developed our crash reports in cooperation with several insurance companies. Not only do we need all of the insurance info, they require an email address. Its not like the police will ever need it! They also request anyone at fault be cited. Following to close for a rear end, and speed to fast for conditions if the driver runs off the road. Yes, they are catch alls.
You should expect the following if you decide to go to court. The prosecutor will have a certified driving record. The prosecutor will have the weather report with snow accumulations for the day as well as previous days. The officer will have his photos if there were any taken. The officer will be present to testify. Any witness will receive a subpoena, even if they did not stop, if they called it in.
My recommendation, pay the lesser of cost and go on. It sounds as if the ticket is less. Insurance rates will go with the crash report.
 
The first hearing is an "arraignment" where the state advises you of the charges and you state your plea. The second hearing is where the state is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you violated the law. It is important to look up the specific statute you are charged with violating. Many times the specific language will contain facts that the state must prove and you can win on if you explain the facts in a clear and reasonable way to the judge. You will not be treated unfairly if you hire a lawyer. The judge is alawyer too.Look up the statue on google.
 
Obviously the cop is technically correct, or she wouldn't have crashed.

That can be said about ANY accident.

What's important to remember is that a driver can be driving appropriately for the conditions prior to them suddenly changing. And that I'd argue is what happened here.

But I think the one thing that'd get her off is to prove the cop himself drove FASTER to the scene of the accident. (because you KNOW he did).

I'd first argue I drove 20 miles without any trouble whatsoever, proving I was driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions. What changed, suddenly, was a change in the condition of the road where I went off. I couldn't forsee the change, had no reason to expect the change, and simply couldn't react quickly enough to the change.

I'd have checked the police records and see how long it took for the cop to arrive at the scene - and calculate how fast he was driving.

I'd ask him in front of the judge how fast he decided to drive in the same conditions.

If he tries to lie his way out of that trap, and states he was only going "about X mph" - I'd hit him with the "really - and you got from the station to point A in X minutes?".

If he argues that was driving faster, but he can drive faster because he's a trained driver, I'd argue that here's a highly trained driver saying that his speed, which was faster than mine, was apprppriate for the conditions.

Is my ticket for driving too fast for conditions, or not having enough skill?

Of course, if you can't prove he was going faster - don't go there.
 
Mr Sutton I'm afraid your idea would backfire entirely. All it would do is prove that Mom was driving too fast for HER abilities and reinforce the States case. The cop didn't have any problems getting there, why did she. I've seen similar ideas tried and they always ended up making it worse.

I also resent the implication that cops always lie. I've been called a liar by people I caught red handed. The problem is people like you believe the liars.
 
(quoted from post at 20:08:00 01/22/13) Husky's question got me wondering, how much does a traffic accident with injuries cost the county to clean up?

This accident required a fire department rescue squad (four people minimum?), a state trooper, an ambulance (driver and EMT?), and a tow truck to recover the car and haul it to an impound yard. The fine from a traffic ticket won't come close to recovering those costs.
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The driver or the driver's insurance pays for the tow truck and storage, but you're right about the rest of it. That's all taxpayer dollars, and amounts to way more than the fine.

This is why I don't understand how people can think these fines are a "money grab." Even politicians think that way.

If they sat down and did the calculations, how much they pay the officer, how much it costs to provide him with a patrol car, how much it costs for the clerks to process the ticket, how much it costs to pay the judge to hear the case, etc. etc.. It can't be profitable to hand out traffic tickets.

If it were profitable, you'd NEVER see a trooper sitting in the median "taking pictures." They'd ALWAYS have someone pulled over on the side of the road. Around here the cops just sit in the median while everyone whizzes by at 65MPH+ in a 55 zone.
 
And the prosecutor says, Objection, the officer is not the one on trial. Plus the fact that state law allows him to respond with due regard for safety. That includes the safety of the person in the car. Or the officer was 2 miles away when the call came in, but it took him 9 minutes arrive. Fact is, you can not prove where he was located at the time of the initial call. The notified and arrived times will be part of the crash report.
 
That's one of those catch all tickets to make money for the city/county/state. Its not worth the fight other than for principal.
 
(quoted from post at 03:09:42 01/23/13) Going to work one morning I looked down to check my gauges and heard tires squealing. I looked up to see everyone else stopping. I rear ended the car in front of me. I was going 35-40 in a 35 MPH zone, had my set belt on, no other violations but got a ticket for failure to stop within assured distance. Kinda hard to argue that one. that was a crappy morning. Sometimes they have to have someone at fault or a ticket issued for insurance reasons.
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Been there, about 20 yrs ago. Only I rear ended a mini van with mom, dad and an infant. Only did $400 damage to their vehicle, broken turn signal lens in mine but was really scared that they would claim the baby was hurt! Got the failure to maintain assured clear distance ticket. Mailed in the fine and moved on. Lots more vigilant now in traffic.
 
Yes if the system worked you could do that but in this area it does not work that way and you have to hire a Lawyer to be able to do any thing about it or pay the fine. Sorry but the court system is in fact broken when you can not have your day with out having to pay a lawyer to do so
 
As others have said the cop is technically correct. However if you can prove the speed vs conditions wouldnt have mattered then you may have a case. Example is you can be doing 20 mph in a 50 mph zone and hit ice. You have no control on ice and if its especially on a grade your going to pick up speed and crash. It happened to me. No ticket was issued.
 
(quoted from post at 09:43:34 01/23/13) Yes if the system worked you could do that but in this area it does not work that way and you have to hire a Lawyer to be able to do any thing about it or pay the fine. Sorry but the court system is in fact broken when you can not have your day with out having to pay a lawyer to do so
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Old I know you think your son got a bad deal, that's OK you are the dad, you can think that way.

The system is like it is because some guy/gal with money trying to prove a point (or more than one person) appealed a decision of the local traffic court and was able to prove that not everyone was receiving equal treatment under the law. So they tightened up how they ran local traffic courts. The system that you were dealing with years ago has indeed been fixed and is no longer broken. You may not like it but they are now running it according to the law.

Depending on the state a cop may or may not be allowed to assess % of blame in an accident. All depends on how much the state legislature is in bed with the insurance companies. The insurance companies like it with more than one vehicle involved because it can reduce the total each company has to pay out. Not to the insured but to each other. If you hit me in a no fault state, my insurance takes care of me you your company takes care of you. If you were at fault then my insurance company is going to go to yours and demand repayment for their cost. If your company can say I was 10% at fault then they don't have to pay the full price.

For the original poster.....Yer mom was indeed driving to fast for conditions. Just move on.

Rick
 
Well this has nothing to do as such with what the boy did or did not do lets drop that.
But it does have to do with the fact you can not longer go to court for a ticket and face the man who gave you the ticket. Now days your guilty or you hire a lawyer which will cost you 3 time the fine so your guilty no matter what or you have to pay so much that the fine is cheaper. Not the way it should be and not the way it was the last time I got a ticket where I could in fact face the cop and he me in the court room and if the cop did not show the ticket got dropped.
Sorry but the system is broken and you have the right to face the guy who accused you
 
(quoted from post at 11:40:40 01/23/13) Well this has nothing to do as such with what the boy did or did not do lets drop that.
But it does have to do with the fact you can not longer go to court for a ticket and face the man who gave you the ticket. Now days your guilty or you hire a lawyer which will cost you 3 time the fine so your guilty no matter what or you have to pay so much that the fine is cheaper. Not the way it should be and not the way it was the last time I got a ticket where I could in fact face the cop and he me in the court room and if the cop did not show the ticket got dropped.
Sorry but the system is broken and you have the right to face the guy who accused you
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Old the thing is your fist court date is an arraignment were you plead guilty or not guilty. Cop don't have to be there for that. 2nd one is mostly for the DA to prove that he has enough to move to trail (thats where discovery comes in and he has to share with you or your lawyer his evidence). Both sides normally can present evidence to show why it should go to trail or be dismissed (the ticket itself is written testomoney and is presented as evidence). The cop only has to be available to you at trail. At that point you do get to face your accuser. So if you get to face your accuser means you have several days in court and missed work. Sorry but that's not broken just cause they are making sure everyone is treated fairly under the law. I'd like to know how it's fair for you to get out of a ticket cause a cop fails to shows up at an arraignment yet I get fined because he shows up for mine. It's an arraignment, not a trail. The judge is supposed to allow you to plead and see if the DA wants to proceed. That's it. No testimony allowed for a simple traffic ticket so why on earth should the cop be there? Just because it's inconvenient for you to pay a fine for breaking the law? I haven't had a ticket in years and only went to court on 2 of them. I did beat them both and that was back in the 70's. I went through the whole 9 yards both times, both in KS, one in a small town the other on Ft Riley. Every other ticket I've gotten I've known I was wrong and just paid the fine. Some call that accepting responsibility for your actions. I haven't had a ticket sense the early 80's cause I now obey the traffic laws.

Rick

Rick
 
MEANT to start my post with IF I were to contest it - meaning I wouldn't - but IF I were...

I would make the case that if the cop, a trained expert driver, considered speed X appropriate for the road conditions...

Then why on earth would he be justfified in giving me a ticket for driving too fast when I was driving slower than him???

If he agrees that HE was driving appropriately, albeit faster than me, then I'd say I made my point.

It's not putting the cop on trial at all.
(by the way - these things, at least in MA, go in front of a clerk magistrate who gives you a lot more leniency in your argument than a judge in a court would.)

The cop was the one who WROTE the ticket. It's his OPINION that I was driving too fast. And that is what the ticket is based on.

But he didn't clock me - he didn't even SEE me.

It's his OPINION based on HIS judgement of road conditions.

And if he admitted that he himself was driving faster than I was, using his judgement of road conditions, then clearly he's mistaken with this ticket.
Remeber this isn't about driving over a posted speed limit - it's about not slowing down "enough" - what's "enough" - it becomes subjective, which means you can argue it.

The road conditions were the same for both of us.

Perhaps he considers himself a more highly skilled driver, but he has no history of my driving training. He can't arbitrarily say he's a better driver. He'd be making an assumption - and it's not right to make me pay a fine based on a police officer's assumption.

And finally - I also said IF I could prove how long it took him to get to the site - IF he left from the station - or IF I could find out where he came from.

IF I wanted to fight it - that is what I'd TRY to do.

GAURANTEE they'd at least cut the ticket in half for your effort if it really matters to you.
 
As I said it does not work that way in the court system we have. If you plead not guilty they set it back a month and you go in and it starts where it was you plead guilty or not guilty. Then it gets set back a month again just to have the same thing. It does that 3 or so times then the judge say well no lawyer then pay or get a lawyer and that is it. So as I said the system is broken at least here
 
It is my understanding that the police can ticket a person who has a accident due to weather conditions. It comes down to going to fast for conditions or failure to keep your vehicle under control. I believe you will find the answer in PA Title 75 .
 
If she had a clean driving record until this ticket she can go to court and ask for court supervision. She'll have to pay for the ticket and court costs. The ticket won't go on her record unless she receives another ticket within a year.

It may be different in other states but in IL you have to notify the DA in advance if you want to go to court. If the officer doesn't show up you can ask for the case to be dismissed. Of course the DA may ask for a continuance.
 
(quoted from post at 14:19:29 01/23/13)
(quoted from post at 11:40:40 01/23/13) Well this has nothing to do as such with what the boy did or did not do lets drop that.
But it does have to do with the fact you can not longer go to court for a ticket and face the man who gave you the ticket. Now days your guilty or you hire a lawyer which will cost you 3 time the fine so your guilty no matter what or you have to pay so much that the fine is cheaper. Not the way it should be and not the way it was the last time I got a ticket where I could in fact face the cop and he me in the court room and if the cop did not show the ticket got dropped.
Sorry but the system is broken and you have the right to face the guy who accused you
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Old the thing is your fist court date is an arraignment were you plead guilty or not guilty. Cop don't have to be there for that. 2nd one is mostly for the DA to prove that he has enough to move to trail (thats where discovery comes in and he has to share with you or your lawyer his evidence). Both sides normally can present evidence to show why it should go to trail or be dismissed (the ticket itself is written testomoney and is presented as evidence). The cop only has to be available to you at trail. At that point you do get to face your accuser. So if you get to face your accuser means you have several days in court and missed work. Sorry but that's not broken just cause they are making sure everyone is treated fairly under the law. I'd like to know how it's fair for you to get out of a ticket cause a cop fails to shows up at an arraignment yet I get fined because he shows up for mine. It's an arraignment, not a trail. The judge is supposed to allow you to plead and see if the DA wants to proceed. That's it. No testimony allowed for a simple traffic ticket so why on earth should the cop be there? Just because it's inconvenient for you to pay a fine for breaking the law? I haven't had a ticket in years and only went to court on 2 of them. I did beat them both and that was back in the 70's. I went through the whole 9 yards both times, both in KS, one in a small town the other on Ft Riley. Every other ticket I've gotten I've known I was wrong and just paid the fine. Some call that accepting responsibility for your actions. I haven't had a ticket sense the early 80's cause I now obey the traffic laws.

Rick

Rick
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For the love of god, please, [b:16ea6f31d8][i:16ea6f31d8]please[/i:16ea6f31d8][/b:16ea6f31d8] stop trying to talk logic or reason to this guy, he is [b:16ea6f31d8][i:16ea6f31d8]never[/i:16ea6f31d8][/b:16ea6f31d8] going to listen. [b:16ea6f31d8][i:16ea6f31d8]NEVER[/i:16ea6f31d8][/b:16ea6f31d8]. He has made up his mind that his precious little snowflake has done nothing wrong and never will. Its all the courts fault, its broken after all. Never mind the whoppers that get made up along the way like the last post saying that you have to go to court 3 (or more) times, plead not guilty all 3 times then on the last one, if you dont have a lawyer with you, get told to pay the fine or get a lawyer.

Please, just quit feeding the troll.
 
If your car leaves the road and sustains significant damage, its pretty much automatically "driving too fast for conditions". The point being that you may leave the road, but if you're not driving too fast for conditions, you won't be going fast enough to do a lot of damage.

I wouldn't waste money on an attorney (even though I am one)- as others have said, she can get a break from the judge (because she is something different than the usual line of knotheaded kids parading through).
 
(quoted from post at 13:57:30 01/23/13) MEANT to start my post with IF I were to contest it - meaning I wouldn't - but IF I were...

I would make the case that if the cop, a trained expert driver, considered speed X appropriate for the road conditions...

Then why on earth would he be justfified in giving me a ticket for driving too fast when I was driving slower than him???

If he agrees that HE was driving appropriately, albeit faster than me, then I'd say I made my point.

It's not putting the cop on trial at all.
(by the way - these things, at least in MA, go in front of a clerk magistrate who gives you a lot more leniency in your argument than a judge in a court would.)

The cop was the one who WROTE the ticket. It's his OPINION that I was driving too fast. And that is what the ticket is based on.

But he didn't clock me - he didn't even SEE me.

It's his OPINION based on HIS judgement of road conditions.

And if he admitted that he himself was driving faster than I was, using his judgement of road conditions, then clearly he's mistaken with this ticket.
Remeber this isn't about driving over a posted speed limit - it's about not slowing down "enough" - what's "enough" - it becomes subjective, which means you can argue it.

The road conditions were the same for both of us.

Perhaps he considers himself a more highly skilled driver, but he has no history of my driving training. He can't arbitrarily say he's a better driver. He'd be making an assumption - and it's not right to make me pay a fine based on a police officer's assumption.

And finally - I also said IF I could prove how long it took him to get to the site - IF he left from the station - or IF I could find out where he came from.

IF I wanted to fight it - that is what I'd TRY to do.

GAURANTEE they'd at least cut the ticket in half for your effort if it really matters to you.
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I'm sorry, that's just not the way it works in the real world. The burden of proof is on the State and the proof is that the car left the road, went over the rails and overturned, etc., while other cars made it safely and the ladies statements. Unless there were other cars off the road for the same reason in that particular area your argument is baseless. All the other cars made it alright, why didn't she? That is the crux of the argument. Most judges I have dealt with in that type of case will certainly take the whiteout into consideration but most of them are like any driver up north that has been in whiteout conditions numerous times- you can see it coming and you slow down. Due regard for conditions as they call it. Your argument just re-enforces the states case.

The best thing to do is to tell the truth of the matter, not try to invent fanciful Perry Mason/CSI bs arguments that have little relation to the actual accident. If she goes in and presents the conditions she'll probably walk out with a dismissal or reduction. The ticket is for "Speed too fast for conditions", that means the conditions at the time of the accident. If she, or you, went in trying to prove you aren't at fault because 20 other cars and the cop were able to drive safely on the same road...sorry, you'll shoot yourself in the foot.
 
There's such a backlog of court cases here they don't do the arraignment hearing. If someone wants to appear in court they have to notify the DA ahead of time so they can make sure the officer is in court. If the officer doesn't show up the case will usually get dismissed unless the DA can make a compelling argument for a continuance.

The OP should call the DA. If his mom has a clean driving record the DA will often plea bargain to a lesser charge, court supervision, or in some cases drop the charges.

I've had several police officers as customers and one officer in the family. Most say their departments didn't have quotas....but a couple admitted their departments did.
Some departments are used by their towns for revenue enhancement. They don't necessarily profit from writing tickets, but they recover some of the cost to run the town.
 
I know it seems like adding insult to injury, but the trooper was just doing his job. And considering the amount of damage, he might have charged her with something much more serious. Driving too fast for conditions seems like the most lenient charge for the situation you described.

How much is the fine? Unless it is a lot more than I believe it would be, I doubt that it would be worth the time to go to court, as I believe a judge would find her guilty of the charge. On the other hand, sometimes a judge will suspend some or all of a fine, depending on the circumstances.

Unless your mother has a terrible driving record and her license would be suspended or revoked with one more conviction, I think employing an attorney (@$350/hr!!!) would be a huge waste of money. The traffic courts I have been in were not that much different than the "People"s Court" on TV. Only serious offenses required lawyer representation.

I would pay the fine or represent myself, pleading guilty with an explanation in court and get on with my life.

Tickets are little reminders to not do what you did again. Be thankful that your Mom came through the situation as well as she did--it could have been SO MUCH worse. Good luck HTH!
 
You are delusional. The only thing you'd be guaranteed is the judge would give you a tongue lashing for your ridiculous defense. She could try to argue that road conditions were the main cause of the accident and might get a pardon or reduced fine.
 
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