Tractor troubles.. Need suggestions.

Hey fellas,

I'd like to start out saying I hate to ask a question like this.. For one, I'm usually pretty good on fixing my own issues, and for two, it's kinda a hard thing to explain and diagnose without seeing/hearing my issue..

I have a 1953 Massey Harris 33. I've owned it since I was 16 (almost 16 years now..) but it has been parked for a few years now while I repaint/restore it. I've finally got it back running, but it runs worse than I ever remember it running. It never ran all too spectacular in colder temps, but it's been back together and running for about 2 months now and I cannot find my problem.

The tractor runs rough, but does not seem to lack power. It was always a little "rough" at idle, but now I can't get it to "clean up" at any speed. It will run good for a minute plus or minus, then will act as if it is missing for a few seconds, then clean up and on and on.. I don't know that missing is the right word.. but it will run rough, and kinda pop (but not backfiring)

The details:

I tore it down because it needed head work.. It ran well then, but was blowing past valves and that started the resto work. All valves are NEW and work was done by a reputable machine shop.

Valves set per manual.

All wiring is NEW. Battery is new and up to charge.

Points, condenser, coil, cap, rotor, wires, and plugs are new. All gapped to specs, firing order is correct. Delco C87 plugs (which I always used in it before) and metallic core plug wires.

I cleaned (soaked) carb before painting and installed all new gaskets etc. As far as I can tell it is not sucking air.

Sediment bowl is good and clean and seems to have good fuel flow clear up to the carb.

Carb set per manual, but no adjustments seem to help the issue.. I can get it to clean up some, but never completely.

Pulling the choke slightly (or even fully) does not seem to help at all.. Only make it run a bit worse, or start the "rich" smoking.

Has a thermostat, seems to run worse cold (as should be expected).

Air temps don't seem to affect the problem.. Today it was about 60 outside, and it ran just the same as it did in freezing temps last weekend.

I do get some "frost" on the intake manifold, but so do my other tractors when it's cold out, and they still run fine. Tried wrapping a rag tightly around the intake.. No change.

I'm thinking I have one of 2 things going on:

1) bad plugs... (this past spring I had issues with my Farmall cub similar to this.. It called for the same Delco plug, but ran horribly.. My neighbor and former IH dealer worked on it, he put champion D-21?? plugs in it and claimed that fixed it right up)

2) carb issues.. But it seems like doing some turning of the screws or choking would change things a little bit.

I've double and triple checked everything I can think of.. Anyone got another twist on things? What should I try? Plugs? Pull carb and check everything there again? Sorry for the long post, but wanted to offer as many details as I could.

Thanks in advance,

Brad

Sometimes the centrifugal advance systems get sticky or out of spec.
Another issue id distributor shaft bushing wear. If you can move the distributor rotor shaft at all (not in out, but sideways) in any direction it is bad. It needs to be less than .001 movement or the points will cause timing to go way off as the cam wobbles. Jim

I just had the heighbors 620 in my shop would run a bit then backfire and die. He had just replaced the plugs wire cap rotor points and condensor. It ended up being a faulty new condensor. Like you say hard to diagnose without seeing it but could be worth a try to put the old one back in and see if it changes.

Check your coil. I've had this problem with a bad
coil. Also I don't recomend champion plugs, have had
nothing but trouble with them, altho I drive case
tractors and they are picky with plugs.

I'm not a massey man, but I assume it has battery
ign, not magneto. I would be darn sure the shaft
is in good shape in distributor, not moving
around, and then automatic advance is working
properly. Should be near tdc at low idle and
smoothly advance to max at full throttle.,
(what ever that is on that model, guess around 30
degrees). If springs are broke or weights worn out
it will jump all over the place. Not necessary to
have a fancy timing light with advance feature,
just some marks you can visualize on pulley or
flywheel. Any wear in camshaft drive or dist drive
will cause spark to jump all around also.

I'm not a "Massey guy" myself.. I'm a tractor guy.. lol.. Have 2 Farmalls, a Ford, 2 Masseys, a Case, a Allis, and 5 Co-Op/Cockshutts..

Yes, it is battery ignition.. Should have stated that.

Pete, J: I'll check out the advance tomorrow.. Could be the issue.. Never been that deep into the dist. I want to say that "shaft wobble" isn't the problem, as it used to run pretty darn good.. I farmed about 30 acres with it when I first got it going way back then and it ran a heck of a lot better than it will now.. But, could be possible.

Jon F: I've never been a fan of Champion either.. This was the first tractor I ever bought, and the only plug I got to hold up good was the Delco's..

Thanks so far guys,

Brad

I should have added I use champions in my tractors
and in almost all of them I repair for my customers.
They are fine provided you use the correct style and
number for your engine.

Pete,

as I had stated, I had similar doings with my Cub this spring.. went through most the same doings as I have with this tractor (The Cub was new to me though, and I bought it at a consignment sale, so I had no idea what was it's story, figured at the least it needed a good tuning).. I finally decided the neighbor should look at it, after not being able to get it to run better.. I believe it was D-21 Champions he put in it (I'd have to look to be sure that was what he used).. He said they're a touch hotter than stock, but that's what he uses these days. I have ran the Cub probably 20 hours since with no more issues. He swears that's all he did was swap plugs.. I have no reason to doubt him.

Also.. as I sit here thinking.. If I recall correctly, My Massey always had a issue with #3 plug.. Maybe in the morning I should look at that as well.. I guess I figured it was on account of the bad valve, but maybe there was/is a different issue..

Brad

Also make sure distributor is getting a good ground, Had one a long time ago, Can't remember if it was a car,tractor, or truck that the dist. was not getting a good ground though the rust that had built up around it.

How old is the fuel?

Have you reset the valves.

Empty the sediment bowl, and check for water in the bottom of the tank. My tractors that sit outside run well until I start using them heavy and get to bouncing around a bit. Then the water buildup in the bottom of the tank starts going over the spigot hole and filling up the sediment bowl. Even half a bowl full of water will make them run crappy. If the sediment bowl is mostly water there will be just enough film of gas getting across to make them run, but not well.

This may be of some value Since head work was done air flow has been modified so intake air leaks magnify- 1) there may be a vacum leak at the head mounting area due to warpage (may need to resurface for proper mating) flow also changed air/fuel ratios thus sparkplug heat range may need adjusting
2) was mentioned about coil- be sure the coil positive term goes to dist on a neg ground system or induced voltage will not be correct.a weak spark cannot fire a plug correct
3)verify the needle point on air mixer screw has a perfect bevel and not stepped allowing gulping of fuel out of the bowl

OK.. To answer questions..

Fuel is NO MORE than a month to 2 old.

Sediment bowl has no water.. Tractor hasn't been outside more than for a drive in 5 years or more. Tank was completely drained and cleaned before painting.

The manifold should not need surfaced.. Has less than 100 hours on a NEW manifold, and had the surfaces checked at time of purchase.

Valves were set less than a hour run time ago.. Set them "warm", to manual specs. Don't have 2 hours on the engine yet since getting it running after painting.

Positive on coil on 12v system w/negative ground goes to dist?? Everything I can find says it needs to be wired exactly the opposite, neg on coil to the dist.

I will also check the needle screw out.. I do not recall it being stepped at all when I cleaned the carb, but perhaps it was.

Brad

Brad........you ask......."Positive on coil on 12v system w/negative ground goes to dist?? Everything I can find says it needs to be wired exactly the opposite, neg on coil to the dist"........since 12V alternators DEMAND negative (-) ground, then the 12V roundcan coil terminals should also match ...ie... negative (-) goes to the points which are GROUND. Howsomevers, in real life, it don't hardly matter; (+) or (-) coil terminal to points.

Remember; neither points or condenser care iff'n 6-volt or 12-volt; positive (+) or negative (-) ground. .........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

Check the compression on all cylinders. We had the valves ground on an engine once - that turned out to be a shoddy valve job. Had the valves re-done at a different shop and engine worked great.

When you soaked the carb did you completely disassemble it and
clean out all of the passages? If you just soaked the two halves
there could be debris in some of the passages or jets.
Zach

Brad, I'd pull the spark plugs, (all 4) and see what
color the electrodes are. That should give you a
clue as to what is or is not going on.

Thanks so far to all that have posted..

Just came in from Saturday morning breakfast a little bit ago and got changed into my shop clothes.. Bout to take advantage of what sounds to be our last warm day for a stretch now.

I'm gonna look over the ignition system again really good and see if I can find my issue.. Thinking it has to be something relatively simple.. It ran pretty dang good when I started the resto, so it has to be something I'm overlooking..

Grandad and I talked about it on our way to breakfast this morning, and he seems to think maybe my timing needs some slight adjustment still. He also said if I don't get anything figured out, he'll come show me what I'm not doing right later on.. LOL.. I'm nowhere as good at this stuff as he is, but hopefully when I hit his age I'll have that experience he (and so many of you guys) have.

Update to come,

Brad

If all you done was soak the carburetor it is not
clean. You need to clean all the passages with
something like a torch tip cleaner or micro drill
bits and compressed air, just soaking a carburetor
will never get a plugged passage cleaned out.

A vacuum gauge is a great tuning tool. Not saying that it will find this problem for you but it might, and it will probably enable you to eliminate some things.

Someone else allready said condensor. I also think you may
want to try putting the old one back in. I have had a few bad
ones from new.

I agree with Show Crop, I'd start with a vacuum gauge. It'll tell you a lot.