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Need a bigger gun?????

D

da.bees

Well-known Member
Loganville Georgia. A woman reportedly shot an intruder 5 times with at least 3 hitting torso including a lung with a 38spcl and the intruder exited the home and drove until crashing his car. The intruder was arrested.
Please,reserve secound amendment comments and brand names, lets talk about minium calibar and type projectil for self protection.
I think the ammo must have been FMJ or other law enforcment/military approved,otherwise the multiple wounds would have incapacitated him if for no other reason lose of blood over that lingth of time.
Where is the sensable line when talking about calibar in a small frame revolver for use by new gun owner? Aside with 357 using 38 for pratice I'm asking about using what it's chambered for.
I vote for 38spcl hollow point.
 
In this case, the minimum caliber should be 12 gauge buckshot, and maybe reloading 4-5 times and having the gun emptied each time. Since the burglar lived, the taxpayer has to foot the bill for the hospital and court costs. Maybe the burglar's getaway vehicle was a tractor....
 
She must have been using standard, lead, 158 grain round nose. I would have thought a good brand of 158gr. jacketed hollow points would have done a better job. Maybe she had a little snub nose, short barrel.

The .38 special in +p is not far below standard .357. Not equal, but not far off. Enough to do the job I would think.

If my life depended on killing an intruder in the house, I would want a 12 gague with #4 buck and maybe an improved cylinder choke. Preferably my Remington 1100 with the magazine full.

Gene
 
Placement before caliber. If you shoot them in the foot with anything short of a flame thrower it will not stop them. If they are hit in a more vital place it will. I don't know how 5 head shots could go wrong though. I used to have a .32 short that was lucky to go all the way through a pop can. Not exactly a real personal defense gun!
 
Well, she got rid of the intruder, so it worked, whatever she used. I carry a 9mm with cast target loads, but I"m pretty confident of my shooting abilities. Wife carries 9mm with JHP designed to make serious wounds. If she gets one on target, will slow him down some, fer sure.
Was cleaning out a friend"s ammo drawer, found some .22 Auto - now there"s something to annoy an intruder with! I"m sure not criticize the lady with her .38, she shot what she had.
 
Just read a article last week about recommended home protection guns. The article stated that indeed a 12guage is the best overall weapon, however they recommended much smaller shot. Better chance of hitting th target and still does lots and lots of dammage.
 
(quoted from post at 16:32:53 01/07/13) Just read a article last week about recommended home protection guns. The article stated that indeed a 12guage is the best overall weapon, however they recommended much smaller shot. Better chance of hitting th target and still does lots and lots of dammage.
Click to expand...
Only problem with 12guage loads in a small frame revolver is it might be hard to handle when she fired. :wink:
 
A friend of mine had one of those also. I suppose the intruder would be laughing so hard he couldn't so anything.
 
That was one of the reason the old 38 was dropped by the military and the 45acp came to be. But face it if a person is big enough and wants to get away unless you do a heart shot he can/will get away. It has also been proven the simple little 22 can be one of the best guns to stop a person but not because it kills as such it just flat out rips it way all over the body if it hit a bone
 
Its not what its where. My dad would use nothing but 22 shorts to kill hogs. Those were hogs weighing 3 to 4 hundred pounds and they were shot in the brain. Seldom did he have to shoot them more than once. He always claimed long rifles woud penetrate too much and cause a shoulder to spoil if penetrated. Joe
 
The favorite weapon of hitmen is a .22 LR to the back of the head from a semiauto.


It was a .22 that killed Ken McElroy in Skidmore MO, even though he was also shot with a 30-30
 
>If my life depended on killing an intruder in the house, I would want a 12 gague with #4 buck and maybe an improved cylinder choke.<

Yup, Waterfoul Magnums. 1&3/4 oz worth at a higher speed. Even a near miss is probably enough.
 
Don't know if it made the world news or not ? but in cleveland oh. the cops shot 2 suspects that were in a high speed chase a total of 137 times !!!!! i think 13 cops were involved.
 
For in home protection I have 12 ga 4 shot 3" shells. Less chance of over penetrating sheet rock walls and they make a horrible mess of soft flesh - think hamburger.

A kid I went to highschool with had an "accidental discharge" of that load in his pickup. Literally blew his leg off just below the knee - even with both halves nice and handy no surgeon on this earth could sew it back on.
 
You hear all the time about cops shooting an innocent bystander during such an event - but I've never once heard of a non-law enforcement person accidently shoot an innocent bystander.
 
That's what my granddad did. Poked a .22 rifle right in the ear, I never saw him have to shoot twice.
 
The question was load for the .38 revolver, not best home defense tool-sensei said he used model 12 winchester with number 2 goose loads. SO, to get back to question- home defense with .38- I had Xgirlfriend use cast 158 grain semi wadcutter reload with the 146 grain wadcutter powder load made by a commercial reloader- this for 5 inch barrled 6 shot standard weight house gun. The target 146 grain hollow based Speer loaded backward is another possible for a 5 shot snub- was what a little barely 100 pound neighbor lady used as house and carry tool- moderate recoil, accurate at close range and definite mushroom in a groundhog body, less likely to penetrate mobile home walls- I gave her about 30 of the leftover bullets to use and test, she made it her standard with husband using couple grains Bullseye then went to Red Dot?. For the factory defense loads? the 125 grain hollow point +Ps flash a lot and don"t really do much more when hit while the Federal?? KantFlash is a load designed for 2 inch snubs with very quick burning but moderate pressure powder load- 125 grain half jacket hollow point or flatnosed 150/158 grain lead. Super Vel used to make a 110 grain half jacket wide hollow point and it had some defense incidents- did better in a 4 inch revolver but a couple 2 inch users noted in the stopped attacker reports from the Detroit Police shooting inspector/reviewer sometimes printed in Rifleman. My own opinion based on some familiarity-- the flat nosed lead or reversed hollow based Speer and fire 50 rounds a month after initial 100 rounds a week practice for 500 rounds- shooter will be able to flash align sights and shoot very good close to moderate range- 5 to 10 meters- and groundhog can be cooked using rabbit recipes. Burglars bodies can be left for coyotes or slow coming coroner van. Bigger gun? Tauru Judge getting some comments- but sister carries little Ruger single action .22 mag on belt and uses it for lots of varmit control, sometime with the .22 long rifle cylinder, so she"ll hit what she shoots at and it is handy on belt about all time working in field, going to town- need to shoot a lot with what is comfortable to carry and use, don"t need a real big gun that is awkward to use- I prefer old .44 special SAAMI black powder spec in .44 mag Ruger for target and general use or a low recoil 170 grain hollow point. RN
 
In case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, the ammo she used saved her and worked fine. However, the taxpayers will be footing the bill for this scum from now on until he dies in prison. After that, we'll have to pay for his funeral. That's what bugs me the most about it. Now had she killed him, the welfare payments to him would have stopped as soon as they threw some dirt over him.
 
I have a S&W Stainless 38 Spl. 5 shot snub nose it's good for
making a lot of noise but if you want to hit the intruder make
sure it's down his throat before pulling trigger.
My 30/30 pistol is up in the closet but to far away to get
to.anyway my dog will make short work of the guy first.
Walt
 
The .22 did not kill McElroy! The fella (hero in my book) shooting the .22 was the one that killed McElroy.

Guns don't kill people.
 
I keep birdshot in my home defense shotgun (plain old 2 3/4 Remington 1100). I figure there is no way they can get all that #8 shot fished out of whoever has the gonads to break in my house. If the initial blast doesnt get'em the lead poisioning will.

I have all sorts of loads for 10/12/20 gauge but I still chose the birdshot for home defense. There is somewhere around 460 pellets in 1 1/8 oz load of #8. Go ahead doc.... fish'em out...
 
The first thing that comes to mind is how big was this guy??? A 32 is ok for the average person, but if this guy would dress out at over 300#, it likely just made him mad.
The second thing is some of the comments about 12 ga and buckshot and larger calibers. while this will stop an intruder, there is one concern. We in defense of our homes, have the same problem as law enforcement. we have to worry where the bullet/ shot goes if we miss. Crooks out to rob or do you in don't care if they hit someone else if they miss you. Think long and hard about your choice of gun and load for home defense.
 
Awwwww com-on folks. It only takes 1 well placed shot (with any caliber gun ) to remove the threat of losing life. One can argue that a pistol is better then a revolver etc but it all boils down to who placed the killing shot. A air rifle slug through the eye can stop most intruders, as can a S&W 500 pistol do the job within seconds. The perp would never hear the cylinder click over . JMHO. LOU.
 
I think I related the experience of my farm neighbor this last summer. A hopped up BIGgg guy tried to break in. The neighbor shot him in the thigh with a 16 gauge close enough it punched a hole through the bone without cutting it off. The would be intruder did not run away and almost bled out before the medics/cops got him strapped down and the bleeding stopped.
My vote--a 12 gauge short shotgun. But it has to be right close to hand when the intruder comes calling.
 
I use a Kimber 1911A 45 cal pistol for home defense. At 5-20 ft, it will stop any intruder and it sits on my nightstand loaded and cocked. You keep shooting until the intruder threat is neutralized, i.e. on the ground. No chance the intruder will grab the barrel.

For night time carry, I carry a Beretta Tomcat 32 cal pistol, requires a cranial shot versus thoracic cavity shot. Again, at 2-10 ft, a cranial shot is not that difficult. Always has a shell in chamber, single action on first shot and double action on 2nd shot, etc. Carries in my pocket with no bulge and quick to get out.
 
When it comes to personal defense, the gun you have with you is better than any you left at home.
 
It seem likely she was using standard velocity 38 Special loads. Just the same, they did the job: The intruder stopped what he was doing and took off.

A friend of mine was going through a divorce and ticked off his wife. She shot up his commercial fishing boat with a 38 loaded with Blazer ammo. The Blazers didn't penetrate the heavy fiberglass hull. They did penetrate the motor cover of his Evinrude outboard, but bounced off the aluminum engine block.

38 Special +P is very hard to beat for a defensive round. It's about equal to 9mm Luger and superior to .380 Auto. But using standard velocity .38 loads, or worse yet wadcutter target loads for self-defense is not a good idea.

Yes, 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, .40 Auto, etc. are all more lethal than .38 Special +P. But who wants to lug around a heavy gun, waiting for the one-in-a-million chance you'll need it? And there are very few shooters who can accurately shoot .357 Mag in a snub-nose pocket pistol.
 
Have 12 gauge home load of 4 shot and bb's. Figure two barrels of that will stop them, if not, then let them have whatever they want
 
Old, the decision by the Army to specify a .45 caliber sidearm had nothing to do with the .38 Special. It was due to the unsatisfactory performance of the .38 Long Colt during the Moro uprising in the Philippines. And the standard to which it was compared was the .45 Colt. Both of these were black powder cartridges, and there is simply no way to get high velocity out of a black powder cartridge. If you want muzzle energy out of a black powder weapon, you need a big bore. Had the troops in the Philippines been armed with .38 Specials loaded with modern +P ammo, the results would likely have been much different. Indeed, the .38 Special was developed as a replacement for the .38 Long Colt.
 
Then there was the real happening of the old codger near verona, Ky about 6 months ago. He heard a burglar breaking in. He had a loaded .22 LR squirrel rifle beside his bed at ready and let the guy have it at close range say 15-20 ft. The burglar was totally surprised and collapsed down a stairwell where his get away partner gathered him up and drove him to a hospital. The bullet hit was about 3 inch below the heart at 1 AM. Burglar died in hospital 7-8 hrs later. True story. Is a difference in pistol and long guns bullet speed but don't totally write off small caliber arms & type of ammo. (and aim)
 
Recommending Plus P, in general is going to get someone hurt. There are alot of small frame 38s out there that aren't rated for plus P, and could blow up in someones face!!!
I would recommend a hot Jacketed hollow point.

I have also seen deer, that aren't any bigger then a man, hit in the lungs, with a 7MM Mag, go for close to a mile before they tipped over. Its all about the adrenaline pumping threw them. as to how far they can go.
 
HEY STUPID STOP BUGGING ME LEARN TO READ DUMMY I NEVER SAID ANY THING ABOUT A 30 SPECIAL I SAID 38 PLAIN AND SIMPLE LEARN TO READ YOU BIG STUPID MORON
 
I'm guessing even a .22 long rifle has more punch than a .25. My little Colt .25 is mighty cute, though. Like its mother was a 1911.
 
What caliber it is is of no real consequence. The first round may just pizz him off. The second round may pizz him oss some more. But only a real fool is gonna ask for the same answer three tiomes.....
 
Good for her!

In answer to your question. The biggest caliber you can reliably
control and hit with. I sure like my 1911 in .45acp

True 1 stop shots require a high velocity rifle or shot gun. Most
pistol rounds need to hit the central nervous system to stop in 1
shot.

Pistols WILL get the bad guy thinking about something else,
usually BEING somewhere else.
 
Inside the house, 12 gauge, carry in the truck and on road trips, 357 magnum revolver.
 
Mossberg used to advertise their 410 pump shotgun in the Progressive Farmer magazine as the perfect home defense weapon. Among the features listed was that the 410 had the stopping power of a 45 (ACP) but the shot wouldn't "penetrate wallboard and harm family members in an adjacent room." The advertisement also noted the intimidation factor of chambering a shell in a silent house.

Personally, I would like the first sound an intruder heard in my house be the last sound he ever heard as a living creature on this earth. That sound, of course, would be from whatever firearm was close at hand.
 
All you one shot guys need to take a few minutes away for this site and research what happens to people who find themselves in a deadly force defense situation.

1. Fear. Everyone is going to experience it.

2. Adrenalin. It going to be pumping like mad which is going to cause you to be unsteady.

Both factors are going to affect your ability to shoot strait. Heck, cops and soldiers who train for confrontations miss a lot of shots for those reason and they are wearing vest and a heck of a lot of the time have backup. Soldiers quickly improve in combat zones because they get accustomed to returning fire. Cops, thank God, don't get into those situations very often.


Now getting on to the original question. The 38 isn't very powerful. Plus we would have to know what she was shooting. If it was FMJ round nose they are not going in far nor will they expand much. Granted the gun/ammo did it's intended job of stopping this guy. But now this lady may be sued by the bum because he was only wounded. It also take practice to shoot a double action pistol because of the trigger pull. Most people don't shoot enough to really be good with one or cock it before firing each shot to reduce the pull on the range or plinking. Plain hard truth is that the bigger the round and the harder hitting it is will produce better results. The down side to things like a 357 or 44 mag is the round may go through a bad guy and hit someone else.......like a family member.

Rick
 
I sold my Taurus Judge, too bulky and heavy to carry comfortably. I'm looking into getting a 40 this spring. Doesn't over-penetrate as much as the 9mm. I know a guy who was involved in a shooting who was on top of the guy who got shot, trying to pull him off the guy who shot, and no one at his department complained about moving away from the 9 after that.

I have thought about booby traps for buildings that get broken into. Just set it up to trigger a recording of someone racking a 12 gauge. That's an ominous sound.
 
(quoted from post at 14:31:39 01/07/13) You hear all the time about cops shooting an innocent bystander during such an event - but I've never once heard of a non-law enforcement person accidently shoot an innocent bystander.
Click to expand...

Happens all the time. Every accidental shooting is the same thing. Bullets going other than on target. Spray and pray drive bys are the same thing. Plus, cops generally don't stand among a crowd of people when shooting at a BG. But since the implication is that cops are somehow to blame, we'll do a test. You get a gun and we have people start shooting at you, doinf their best to kill you, after you do a half mile run flat out and if you don't put every round in a 9" circle at 25 yards you lose the bet. For that matter we'll just have you do the run and then the target shooting as you crouch behind a stump. 100% surety you won't put them all in the 9" circle.

I love people that think just because they can put 6 shots in the K5 on a silhouette target at 7 yards on the range means they can do anything even close while some moron is making a determined effort to kill you.
 
(quoted from post at 17:45:04 01/07/13) Old, the decision by the Army to specify a .45 caliber sidearm had nothing to do with the .38 Special. It was due to the unsatisfactory performance of the .38 Long Colt during the Moro uprising in the Philippines. And the standard to which it was compared was the .45 Colt. Both of these were black powder cartridges, and there is simply no way to get high velocity out of a black powder cartridge. If you want muzzle energy out of a black powder weapon, you need a big bore. Had the troops in the Philippines been armed with .38 Specials loaded with modern +P ammo, the results would likely have been much different. Indeed, the .38 Special was developed as a replacement for the .38 Long Colt.
Click to expand...

The other thing people forget with this story is that the Moro tribesmen the 38 Long Colt failed on were hopped up on drugs of some kind and wearing crude body armor. The return to the 45 Colt did not solve the problem in the sense people think it did either. They still weren't falling down dead from one shot but they did get better results.

And to be more correct, the 38 Special was developed as a marketing tool to sell a new line of revolvers, Smith Hand Ejectors IIRC. Doesn't matter really. What matters is that the report in the OP says she shot him 5 times and he went away. That's a win in my book.
 
(quoted from post at 17:46:50 01/07/13) Does a 22 mag have more punch than a 25 caliber?
Click to expand...

Define "punch". The 22 mag has a smaller, usually lighter bullet going faster. The traditional 25ACP jacketed stuff had a poor rep as a one shot stopper, but a great rep as a killer. I carried a little Beretta 25 for a while. Surprisingly accurate little bugger. Killed some skunks and coons with it using modern 35 gr Speer Gold Dots IIRC. Worked better than any 22 or 22 mag I've used.

I'm pretty sure if some BG comes at you and you stick the 25 in his ear he's going to have a problem retaining his bladder control. I distinctly recall coming around a corner on a burg in progress complaint one night and looking into the muzzle of a 22. That bladder control thing can be a real problem.
 
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