making a power plant..

It"s been a couple years since I"ve posted, but I have a bug on my brain and the members of this forum are the only group online I know of with the wherewithall to have useful pointers.

A long time ago I had a dream and we talked about it on here. I have an old 86 Chevy Celebrity with an old iron duke 2.5L 4tech engine in it and i want to keep the engine and throw the car away. I"d like to save just enough hardware to make the engine run and build a little cart for it, and pair it with a generator that"ll load it. i have no idea where to get ahold of a dyno or any other method to test the condition of this engine. I"d like to either pair the generator with a straight-shaft and maybe a clutch, or a belt arrangement. I"d like to keep the engine RPMs low for better fuel economy; Dad taught me that I could save money by driving at the lowest RPM in the highest gear (or right after the lock-up torque-converter engaged; on that car that point came at about 42MPH.)

This project was shelved mostly because Dad said no -- he didn"t want to do it. But he"s not here to say no anymore and his equipment is basically mine now so...

Any comments are appreciated!

Sorry for your loss.

It takes alot of power to move a car, but not much to keep it moving. So your low rpm makes sense for driving the car.

For powering the generator, if you come up with a fuller load, there will be a different 'sweet spot' for rpms to run the genny.

I'm not enough of an engine person to tell you what rpm would be best, but keep yourself open to a bigger load/ faster rpm for efficiency.


What is the end gola of the generator, just to have and use once in a while and say you did it, or to power some isolated area you have, or for frequent backup use, or...

All good uses, just will help with the setup to understand how and how much the power will be used.

There are a lot of generators out there set up for tractor pto use, geared to 540 rpm, or maybe 1000 rpm. Donno what the 'natural' rpm of most generators is to power them directly....

--->Paul

This is and will be, first and foremost, a learning exercise on many levels. I want to exercise the engine just so it doesn't get stuck; these engines are notorious for long life if you're not redlining it. But to be honest, Dad was the metalworker; he built a tractor and loader. he built his own high-clearance sprayer. He worked on cars and all things engine. i know that I need to learn how, and I figure this is a starter project that I can take some time on.

As for its eventual goal: I have a number of ideas, including using it to power a small shed (and keeping the heater-core and blower-fan, i figure I may be able to even heat a well-insulated small room.) wikipedia says the iron duke was designed for a power plant, not a car, so it seems like a proper fit. but it'll be a learning endeavor, sure...

biggest obstacle youre gonna run into is not having a governor to keep engine running at a given speed under different loads...you can always adjust speed manually if its a specific load.
i'd go with a pto generator too...real easy to gear to sweet spot.

A generator needs to run at a fairly constant RPM to produce the right frequency of electricity. i.e. 60 hz for home use.
That would require that every time the freezer (for example) kicks on and load on the
generator increased, the governor on the engine would kick in and keep the RPMs constant.
Car engines weren't equipped with that type of governor.
That's not to say you can't add one, just that it wouldn't be there originally.
If you aren't set on what you want to do with the motor yet, there may be other uses.
Running a PTO driven elevator/auger, belt driven equipment, water/irrigation pump, etc?
Just some thoughts on putting it to use without much modification.
Best of luck!

Governor, there are belt driven governors out there you can use to make the engine perform like it should. One I know about is the first generation Toro Groundsmasters that used the Continental R-839 engine (Renault) had a belt driven governor, of course you'll have to adapt it to the Iron Duke. You may WANT to turn the engine at low speeds but understand a generator under load takes a lot of torque. To engineer it in a gen set you'll need an engine power curve and match it to you generator power needs. By the way Northern equipment sells stand by generators IIRC they have one with a 2.5 GM 4 cylinder power plant, a parts manual and literature on it might point you in the right direction for your project.

Also make sure you hang on to all the electronics for the engine. You will also want the electric fuel pump too.

Heck its free, you cant go wrong.

Rick

How big of generator do you want? While it might be an interesting project, it might not be the most efficient. That's why bigger generators are usually diesel. It could turn out to be an expensive lessen as well.

Sounds like you don't miss your dad too much?

Dan, automotive engines are electronically governed to a variable speed variable load, while generators are governed to a constant speed. I"m told that the ecm from your car can be reprogramed for constant speed, but I have more than a little reservations about whether that is true. If I may be blunt, while I have not used and automotive engine to power a generator, I have used automotive engines to repower marine inboards. It is my experience that rebuilding a pre 1970 engine works far better than trying to use a post 1980 engine. The straight 6 GM 250 works well as well as that V6 Buick engine that was used in Jeeps in the early 1960"s. I think it was a 3.6 or 3.8, but it"s been a long time. What makes that V6 work good is that you can buy commercially sold accesories, such as marine exhaust manifolds. I imagine that you could buy a commercially available electronic governor for an older engine. The issue is speed droop. Even if you set the throttle at the correct speed, lets say 900 rpm (the speed for the last diesel generator I worked on in the Navy), everytime a load changed, such as the refrigerator started, it would cause the engine speed to drop. You would need to be able to add fuel and cut back on fuel as needed to maintain that speed across a varying load range. To be honest, even with a perfect governing system, carborators are only so sensitive to control, anyway. Your next issue is coupling the generator to the engine. Unless you can run a dial indicator well, I recommend using belts and pulleys. They are far more forgiven regarding alignment. Remember that your pulley diameters will affect your generator speed, hence your frequency. If you can mount your fuel tank above the engine with the line coming from the bottom of the tank, like on a tractor, you will have enough pressure to power a GM 250 straight 6 with a carburator. I used one to power a buzz saw years gone by. I used the fuel tank from an Allis Chalmers WD, but if you can get one of those old Farmall fuel tanks that is a straight egg shape the length of the hood, I would think that would work even better. I would install a filter and a coalescer with removeable elements etc. I think we both know that depending on the load you put on your generator, or whatever you do with your engine, your heat load is likely going to change, and possibly a lot. I was asked by a few members of the Aux to repower a couple boats. It was not that difficult to simply use the raw water to cool the jacket water, especially since the pump and expansion tanks were already on board. If you are using the engine in a generator set, I would expect to use a much larger radiator. The electric fan motor may also be a problem (another reason why older engines work better). Another thing that I often would do when taking an automotive engine and using it as either a stationary power plant or marine application is the oil pan. I often cut the bottom of the oil pan just above the bevel, and weld an inch and a half to it. I then weld the bottom back on. I had an indian friend that would make me a slightly longer pick up tube, as well. This increases the amount of oil in you crankcase. I would also upgrade the lube oil pump to a high proformance. If you were using that old Buick engine, the kit comes with gear lobes that are about a half inch longer. Since the oil pump for that engine is assessable from the outside of the engine, it is an easy change. Your engine not so much. Your engine also doesn"t have a flywheel. It came with an automatic transmission and a flexplate, which is to light for most other applications. Just because I"ve never seen a Century with a manual transmission, doesn"t mean that there never was any. Let"s imagine you can find a flywheel, and it"s heavy enough for what you want. Your engine was a front wheel drive block, so you will need to fabricate the housing for the flywheel. Basically an engine from the 1980"s is a terrible stationary power plant engine. I seriously recommend using an engine from the late 1950"s thru 1970 for any stationary power plant. Pay close attention to what controls your engine speed, cools your engine and lubricates your engine. Often after reusing an engine, I find that antifreeze is replaced with simple anti corrosion coolant. Your change in use may warrant a change in the heat setting of your spark plugs also, but that is something you can experiment with as you use it.

Get a catalog from LINDSAYS TECHNICAL BOOKS they have books on the subject.Lindsay is closing his business Feb 2013.

I took care of a generator powered by a Chrysler 6 for several years at a hatchery.A loss of power while the incubators were full would lose a lot of money.As for cruise controls they have a history of causing a engine to run away.My Ford F150 ran away at full throttle.Cruise control was off.Shut the switch off and coasted to a stop.Got the cover off, the throttle was stuck wide open.I didnt floor it so it had to be the cruise control.I was close to TV and radio towers.A check on the internet showed that all makes of vehicles are having troubles with runaways.2 Ford service managers I called said they have had no problems with Ford runaways,I found there are 6 lawsuits pending against Ford because of runaways.Do a search on Ford F150 runaways.I disconnected the cruise control cable from the throttle so a runaway wont happen again with my truck.I hope to ask an automotive engineer if high powered radio transmissions could swamp a cruise control circuit and make the servo motor pull the throttle wide open.An old tractor and a PTO generator make more sense for emergency power.My Ford tractor would use a gallon of gasoline for every hour it powered a generator.

You better read Steve Chastains books on the subject before you start the project.

You better read Steve Chastains books on the subject before you start the project.

I would use a little 4 cylinder engine off an old combine because they have a governor and can load up or unload some depending on the load applied. A generator has to run at a constant speed to keep the electric flow at a steady 60 cycles.

combine engines. That's a great idea too. i have about 5 or 6 510/550 masseys sitting here, and they have Perkins A6 diesels in 'em. But i'm starting this project with an engine which is more-or-less a throwaway. No sense tearing apart a combine yet, I want to start small-ish. The Iron Duke is handy, and I don't need a crane to get it down to the ground to work on it.

the car is throttle-body fuel-injected. computer controlled, never had no cruise, and does have a fuel pump. And a stout one at that -- i replaced it only a year or two before I parked it. There's some vacuum lines on this one for brake boosters and stuff, but I can just plug those right?

A couple of things come to mind. You'll have to find out what RPM range makes the engine run happy and efficient. More modern car engines aren't real efficient at low RPM's. Second concern is what kind of a steady load can that car engine take without scoring or melting pistons and burning valves. Car engines usually have more horsepower per cubic inch than engines that were made for hard working conditions. An engine built for hard work can run at 80% load all day long. A car engine would melt down at that kind of steady load. Jim

I would run that engine at 3600 RPM, it will not develop much torque at low RPMs.

I always thought a cruise control could be used as a governor. That's what they do is maintain a speed to the best of their ability, right.

Russ, that is a unique idea, might work.

You also said you have 5 or 6 combines sitting around. You obviously have a little room to work and for storage.

Get the engine running, then you can start stripping the car. Take off one thing at a time, when it quits you went to far! You will end up with the front cradle and a few bracket to mount the computer, fuel tank, etc.

Don"t be too quick to get rid of the transmission and the half shafts. The trans could be your clutch, the half shafts can help with a little misalignment. If you are thinking generator, it isnt going to work through the transmission, but others on here already covered that.

I said in my previous post, you dont have any money invested, take your time and have fun with it. The engine may not be built heavy like an irrigation pump or genset, but I think you could do plenty of other things with it.

Post some pictures too.

Rick

Best economy happens at light load and RPM equaling the engine's Max Torgue RPM..always lower RPM than Max HP..

I have a Chevy Head left over here, for the 4 cyl. engine..assuming yours is the one that used Chevy 250 6 Cylinder Rods and Pistons, as mine did..
Really fine engines...

Ron..

You have the makings of a good practical education numerous fields.
The engine will be efficient as the computer and O2 sensor will hold the air fuel mixture at 14.7 .
Ebay has all kinds off the shelf generator protection and control "black boxes" to control rpm/throttle and act as a "Murphy Switch". Even ST automatic voltage regulators for the generator side.
The engine produces approx 125 lb ft at 1800rpm to make approx 40HP. This would be a good match to a four pole 25KW generator head.
A 3600rpm setup would make approx 65-70HP and run 40KW generator.
A stub drive shaft, a large and well aligned lovejoy coupling, some safety shields and good to go.
Lots of people line up to yip yip about low rpms, efficiency and long life. Sure if it"s a HD prime power application running full throttle 24/7 in marine application designed to operate for 40 years.
Your gen set is a light duty intermittent operation design. You won"t live long enough to see the difference if it runs at 1800 or 3600rpm.
Use a long heavy wall exhaust system with a good muffler mounted near to the engine. Otherwise it"s going to sound like some rice racer with a phart can muffler.

Cruise controls are know for running away.Had an 85 chevy that did it twice, had to disconnect it.Ford F150 ran away at full throttle a week ago.Google ford F150 runaway.Toyota is first in runaways,Ford comes in second.Ive disconnected my Fords cruise control from the throttle body.

Your Dad said no for a reason. What you are trying to do is going to cost money. Probably as much or more than just buying one.

Two tools for evaluating the condition of a motor internally are oil pressure gauge and compression gauge.

Governor droop is simple. Use a controller with Integer as well as proportional control. Don't need a derivative function in this application.
Who needs a flywheel? The generator's rotor is more than enough mass.
The old engines don't have hardened valve seats. I could imagine the project eventually going dual fuel to use gasoline and propane/natural gas.

Cruise control is set up to control a 3500lb car. The cruise control will hunt, undershoot/over shoot the rpms when controlling a 40lb generator rotor.

Dad said no to many things, mostly because either a) as a parent your kids will always be kids, and he didn't want to see a kid do anything that they could get hurt at; b) he was very possessive of his stuff and didn't want me borrowing his tools to use for fear of not getting it returned, and didn't want me doing something with my stuff in his yard because he didn't want it sitting there a while; and c) he was generally of the mindset that things don't get done unless he does them (and he was right; you got in trouble with him if you did something without him) and he was not interested in many of my projects.

Yes, you have a point that some stuff would need to be bought, and he wasn't into buying stuff if he could avoid it. He found a 50-year-old grain vac in someone's grove and scabbed a PTO drive from a feed-grinder onto it to make the vac run. I was there for all of that. So even if I haven't done these things or know a lot of theory, i've seen it done.

car had an idiot light on oil, I'd have to plumb in
a pressure-gauge and watch it. Last I knew
compression tests were just done by screwing a
pressure-gauge into a spark-plug hole and spinning
the engine with the coil-wire pulled so it couldn't
run.

I've always been fond of these two sedans, my 85 Buick Century and the 86 Chevy Celebrity. Same engine in both of them. Fuel economy was consistently 28-32mpg, and I was a hard driver as a teen. if the gas mileage fell off, i replaced air filter, plugs, wires, and O2 sensor and it was right back up there. these cars were about 2200lbs I think. Thats why I think they'd do well with a well-chosen generator.

(quoted from post at 19:17:48 11/24/12) car had an idiot light on oil, I'd have to plumb in
a pressure-gauge and watch it. Last I knew
compression tests were just done by screwing a
pressure-gauge into a spark-plug hole and spinning
the engine with the coil-wire pulled so it couldn't
run.

Click to expand...

Remove all the plugs then test one cylender at a time.

Rick

As for whether I miss my dad... I do. A lot. I worked with him, I farmed with him, I even lived with him a lot of years, and ate meals with him most of my life except when I was at college or worked elsewhere. But while he was alive, his word was law, the world totally stopped on a dime when he said no. He's been gone over a year and I'm still struggling to find a normal without his almost constant guidance. I still pull in the end of the driveway with a mental list of things to ask him when I get into the house, and then halfway up the driveway I have to remind myself that he's not in the house ready to answer my questions. He was also the mechanic that fixed everything. When he quit farming and then told me that he wouldn't help with equipment repairs, I knew I couldn't keep it going. I can't help but wonder if knowing we were totally out of farming didn't depress him and accelerate the cancer that took him in just over a year and a half. So I may sorta almost feel guilty about that.
either way, it's my car and the frame rusted out, so if i can find the time, it's a win-win to do it. to learn, to help build an independent future, to help move on, etc.

Not that I came here to vent emotionally, but I couldn't let that comment stand. To most of my family, he was the center of our world. The last 12 months have felt more like 20 years because of the constant limbo after the foundation of your world is suddenly jerked away from you. When the doctors diagnosed him with terminal cancer, we had about 5 weeks left to tie up all the loose ends. And I had trouble thinking anything but I wanted to get rid of his cancer, so I didn't even think to ask about whatever things needed regular maintenance I didn't know about. We've just had to muddle through and learn the hard way.

Closest on northern tool I found is the 2.4L 4-cyl with propane kit on it. Wow. 1400lbs, 45kW generator for about 12 thousand. That's a lot of motivation to do it yourself. A quick search quotes 4200 for a comparable PTO generator, which leaves almost 8 thousand for the engine. That's pretty encouraging.

wow. that book on generators and inverters sounds pretty impressive. __Generators and Invertors__, where he uses a Pinto engine and builds his own LP carburetor. That sounds like a great reference for this project!

My dad passed away unexpectedly in 1997 and it seems like only 6 month's ago. I don't know where all the years went. Are you thinking about building this generator to (in a way) prove to your dad or yourself it can be done? If the answer is yes, you don't have to go ahead with it because of course with enough time, resources, materials and $$$$ it could be done. What happens if you spend a pile of money and run into all kinds of problems, big and small, building your gen set? Can you afford to lose that money? If you've never built things like this before, you're likely going to need some help and/or pay someone to help you.

Once cancer sets in, there's not a whole lot you can do depending on the type of cancer. It really sounds like your still struggling with his loss and if he let you down or you let him down. Were you proud of your dad and the bigger question is, do you think he was proud of you? You don't need to build something just cause he said no. Think carefully and do a lot of research and pricing before proceeding. Unlike what some people think, you need to set a budget for your project or it will get out of control in a hurry.

Dan, what did you study in college?

You'd do well to read up on some material.

As far as using the 'old' car... perhaps experiment with a broken genset or maybe a smaller, older genset. This is a learning curve, a good thing! I would think of it as going to college, (and you have to pay for that). Maybe you have children that you could bring into your learning curve project and have the quality time that is needed and sought for. If not, there are outreaches available for children who don't have the guidance of a caring leader in their lives. Perhaps, you could join an Aux power, (as mentioned previously) club and learn more about this...... Electricity and I don't agree on alot of issues... but iam learning.
Have fun, enjoy this time of learning!

This is not about grief or recovery. This is about putting what i already have to a new use because it's not doing me or anybody any good sitting around rusting up. The frame rusted out under the rear right tire, i limped it home hanging on the emergency brake cable.

I have already pulled most of big parts out of the engine compartment. i took a breather on it last year when the black wasps drove me out of the shed, and then we got the news. but i was down to taking the 3 bolts out of the torque-converter and unbolting the tranny from the engine and then I would have been ready to pull the block. While I was waiting for a quick freeze to kill the insects, the news hit. After that the car was put on a back-burner.

My first plan for a generator is not to buy one, but use something else; Dad had a 110V DC generator that's also just laying around.
Alternately, I have plans saved on my computer for using old electric motors as alternators by energizing the stator and driving the motor (not using the start windings at all; they're what usually burn up in a motor so it's still good to me even when others would throw them away.
i have lots of motors laying around; one is even rather large one, maybe 3-5HP electric motor. All that is readily available, for the scrounging. Dad had a lot of old machinery laying around that no one wanted to use anymore; so he'd just take whatever he wanted for a scrap chunk if he wanted to weld something up. again, not spending anything but time. I don't have a lot of experience welding or cutting and brazing, but I do have some -- enough to get started and not do anything stupid. i may be hard on propane a bit, and the torch may pop loudly and go out suddenly, but I've worked with other farmers that do that too. Dad said that was too much oxygen when the cutting lever was down.

even the metal lathe and scrap is available. Shafts, pulleys, and belts are at hand. putting it together and making it run, that's the challenge.

But I was a computer geek and spent 5 years doing that in college. this isnt my field, even if i have some basic experience...