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OT - Fuel Oil Furnace Trouble

K

Kirk Grau

Member
Back at the end of Spring (end of heating season), we were getting a very strong oil smell when furnace fired. Strong enough it lingered when furnace was off as well. Pretty much just turned furnace off and ignored it. Fast forward to thinking about heating season starting and remembering that I need to be thinking about this furnace. What might I be looking for besides a cracked heat exchanger that might give us the strong fuel oil odor? Don"t really want to start this until I get a handle on it. Smell is bad enough, but a little worried about killing us all in our sleep.

FWIW it"s worth it is an older Trane unit. I think the build date on it is early 90"s. We moved here in "03.

TIA,

Kirk
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:02 09/17/12) Back at the end of Spring (end of heating season), we were getting a very strong oil smell when furnace fired. Strong enough it lingered when furnace was off as well. Pretty much just turned furnace off and ignored it. Fast forward to thinking about heating season starting and remembering that I need to be thinking about this furnace. What might I be looking for besides a cracked heat exchanger that might give us the strong fuel oil odor? Don"t really want to start this until I get a handle on it. Smell is bad enough, but a little worried about killing us all in our sleep.

FWIW it"s worth it is an older Trane unit. I think the build date on it is early 90"s. We moved here in "03.

TIA,

Kirk
Click to expand...

can you see the flame? Is it a tight blue or more of a yellow fingery looking??

Our boiler is about the same age..... When it gets the smelly yellow looking flame it's tome for a new nozzle..... Could be different setup tho....
 
Pull and clean the electrodes.Vacume ports on the heat exchanger.Sounds like the electrodes are dirty and need cleaning and respacing. They burn down due to high voltgage at the (tips)points. HTH
LOU.
 
Have considered that and will be looking. Would expect that we would have been smelling that all summer even if not as strong.

~Kirk
 
Been decades since I had a furnace like that but I do know things like a simple line leak and or if it has a fuel pump like the one I had, had that could be going bad or leaking. I would look for the small cheap stuff and work my way up to the high $$ stuff. A simple leak can/will cause a bad smell
 
Assuming this is a warm air furnace.........
If warm air, can you watch the flame until the blower kicks on? If the flame changes, this would indicate a bad heat exchanger.

Does the burner motor have pre purge and post purge capabilty (the burner motor runs for a pre determined time before the oil valve is energized). Post purge would be just the opposite (when t-stat is satisfied, burner continues to run after oil valve is de-energized, thus the fan from the burner will remove fumes from the furnace). Mostly, this is done with the primary control (the box with the reset button).

It could be that the nozzle is dripping fuel with the furnace not running, indicating a bad fuel pump.
First, i would replace nozzle, filter, pump screen, clean electrodes and see if this cures your problem. If not, you may want to call a reputable oil man!
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:02 09/17/12) Don"t really want to start this until I get a handle on it. [color=red:a29cd8f0b5]Smell is bad enough, but a little worried about killing us all in our sleep[/color:a29cd8f0b5].

Kirk
Click to expand...

There are heating professional trained to deal with this. I am one but do not explain this type of service over the internet.

This cannot be properly diagnosed without being onsite with the proper training, tools and test instrument.

There is way more to the SYSTEM than a nozzle, pump or electrodes.

As you said, dying in your sleep or having a fire are both bad plans.

You have serious issues if it is in fact as bad you said in your original post.
 
Fair enough.

Warm air furnace

Last Service was 2 seasons ago, flue pipe was not cleaned. It is pretty black looking. I was considering taking it down and trying to clean out of principle, but decided my principles were not that strong yet.

Have not observed flame, not sure I can even get a good look at it through the little door other than being able to see that is is burning.

Not sure about the pre/post purge, I can tell you that it is a Beckett AFG burner. I think I changed nozzles last year.

Chimney w/ barometric damper.

Thanks for looking,

Kirk
 
Don't disagree with you Kevin. As a consulting engineer designing similar systems I will readily admit when I don't have the requisite knowledge or tools. Having said that, most of this is certainly not rocket science. Can't count how many times I have had service people in due to time constraints or wife not willing to let me look at something and end trying to sell new equipment when old can be serviced. Most recent example is heat pump exterior unit was not starting. Service looked at it for about 30 seconds (at least he removed the panels) before he started trying to sell me a new one. Let him finish his deal, paid for the service call, and started following power with my little meter. Replaced a start capacitor for ~$10 and been working fine since.

Fully recognize that a 20 year old furnace may need be used up, but have enough conficence in my own abilities to at least take a stab at this before calling in the cavalry.

Kirk
 

I'm with Kevin on this one. As a self employed burner tech, I'd be more afraid of giving this advice on line that I would of your taking online advice.

Tractors are one thing, your family's lives are quite another.

Understand that your furnace system is comprised of two separate systems, a burner system and a heat delivery system. It seriously sounds like you have a breach in the line that divides the two. Have it checked out by a pro.

Not being a smartazz by any means, but I've done more than enough insurance sponsored investigations into furnace suspected deaths.
 
As I replied to Kevin, will certainly call somebody in if I am uncomfortable, but have enough knowledge to know what I am looking at and follow instructions. Have replaced the control board in this furnace before when we had a power outage and resulting failure of sump pump.

The service guys I would call on because I know their work don't do oil for some reason. If I can't resolve it myself I will have to try to find somebody else which just gives me more incentive to take a look at it before calling them.

~Kirk
 
(quoted from post at 16:31:37 09/17/12) Don't disagree with you Kevin. As a consulting engineer designing similar systems I will readily admit when I don't have the requisite knowledge or tools. Having said that, most of this is certainly not rocket science. Can't count how many times I have had service people in due to time constraints or wife not willing to let me look at something and end trying to sell new equipment when old can be serviced. Most recent example is heat pump exterior unit was not starting. Service looked at it for about 30 seconds (at least he removed the panels) before he started trying to sell me a new one. Let him finish his deal, paid for the service call, and started following power with my little meter. Replaced a start capacitor for ~$10 and been working fine since.

Fully recognize that a 20 year old furnace may need be used up, but have enough conficence in my own abilities to at least take a stab at this before calling in the cavalry.

Kirk
Click to expand...

Yep, we have shyster companys here in Michigan too. It is not rocket science and there are some good books out there to guide you.
 
Kirk. Your right in saying it's not rocket science. Been servicing our oil furnaces for many years. went to heating shop and purchased nozzle alignment tool . cleaned and re filed points, changed nozzles, vacuumed ports in heat exchanger, tested 10,000 volt transformer (with nothing but a insulated screwdriver,re-positioned barometric,cleaned electronic eye etc. service calls where were at will cost in excess of $100.00 per.When we purchased our NEW LENOX up draft oil furnace, the supplier sent out 2 kids to do the install. We provided the cold air return, even loaned shears to cut in plenum .With in 4 months we called and told em out transformer was toast. They sent out(under warranty) 2 more service men, sure enough the transformer was changed. DUH.Now that doesn't mean everyone should attempt to do their own service work, but learning the operation of oil-Gas furnaces is possible, so one at least has a working knowledge of the animals. Keeps a person from getting screwed over. JMHO. LOU
 

whether it heats air or water it should be the same principal and some pics I googled don't look any different than mine.....

guy came out a few times to fix glitches and I stood right over his shoulder and questioned everything he done... He said to clean it twice a year and replace the nozzle at least once but as often as needed (old/contaminated fuel, moisture, etc). Chimney gets checked and a brush ran thru (if needed) twice a year and emissions once a year. Heating guy and the chimney sweeper said that if they are working, but not just right, to replace the nozzle first (after cleaning)... If not better, think about calling someone.
I order nozzles from ebay and have several on hand.
 
Appreciate the concern. Granted the initial post implies pretty much total ignorance, but I do have a little background with these systems. Do I have the equipment to do combustion efficiency tests, No. Do I recognize that it is part of properly setting up a burner, Yes. Puts me ahead of 90+% of the world.

Last time this was serviced I was out of town and we had run out of fuel. Wife did not know how to bleed it to get it started. Called the service people from the oil supplier and they got it started and supposedly cleaned/checked/tested/etc. Got a bill for most of $400 and know they did not clean the flue (see other post) and have plenty of reason to believe that they did not do any combustion tests either since wife was watching and certainly did not describe anything that remotely resembled any test equipment. Said guy had a screw driver and 2 wrenches in his pocket and nothing else came into the house.

~Kirk
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:05 09/17/12) Appreciate the concern. Granted the initial post implies pretty much total ignorance, but I do have a little background with these systems. Do I have the equipment to do combustion efficiency tests, No. Do I recognize that it is part of properly setting up a burner, Yes. Puts me ahead of 90+% of the world.

Last time this was serviced I was out of town and we had run out of fuel. Wife did not know how to bleed it to get it started. Called the service people from the oil supplier and they got it started and supposedly cleaned/checked/tested/etc. Got a bill for most of $400 and know they did not clean the flue (see other post) and have plenty of reason to believe that they did not do any combustion tests either since wife was watching and certainly did not describe anything that remotely resembled any test equipment. Said guy had a screw driver and 2 wrenches in his pocket and nothing else came into the house.

~Kirk
Click to expand...

Combustion testing is what professionals are about, it tells many thing about the system as does fuel pressure.

Setting an oil unit by eye usually creates the situation you have.
 
It's oil-we had an oil boiler, searched long and hard to find someone to work on it. First three that said "we service oil furnaces" found out that really means "we'll be glad to sell you a new gas furnace" some even went as far as to lie about the condition of the unit we had. Eventually our oil supplier hooked us up with a former oil tech who came and made it work because he didn't want to loose another one to gas, Yes it was still good when we finally gave up and installed a new gas boiler. If you're smelling oil and it's sooted up you're running rich or it's not igniting the fuel you have. Try the basics as suggested by changing the nozzle and cleaning all the burner stuff. Watch the fire, you can learn a lot. You're draft may be messed up but you'll need a tech with a manometer to adjust the draft, which is why the furnace guys don't like oil you actually have to know what you're doing, work and get dirty. We had it a little easier ours was a boiler so we didn't have as much exposure on deadly furnace gasses.
 
KIrk sounds like your versed in Forensics able to say what caused the deaths of folks,when their furnace failed and asphyxiated family members. Do you work closely with the cororner?
Hard to give creadence to your post. LOU.
 
Buy, beg, borrow, or steal (just kidding on that last one) a carbom monoxide tester. Set it up then start the furnace, it you get CO2 in the house, you have a crack in the heat exchanger. That will need to be fixed right away.
 
(quoted from post at 17:10:20 09/17/12) Buy, beg, borrow, or steal (just kidding on that last one) a carbom monoxide tester. Set it up then start the furnace, it you get CO2 in the house, you have a crack in the heat exchanger. That will need to be fixed right away.
Click to expand...

You can get this from a plugged vent also, as I said he needs some test equipment and knowledge
 
(quoted from post at 13:13:43 09/17/12) POst was ment to reply to RON. I apolojize for the error. lou.
Click to expand...

Sorry Lou, I guess I didn't make my point very clear. Here's what I said.

[u:f7730dcb07][i:f7730dcb07][b:f7730dcb07]"I've done more than enough insurance sponsored investigations into furnace suspected deaths."[/b:f7730dcb07][/i:f7730dcb07][/u:f7730dcb07]

Lou, or Loupu or whatever, I'm not at all schooled in forensics, the only coroner I know is my doctor who is an assistant coroner, but we've never discussed his trade beyond the scope of my case.

What I've done is work for the insurance company that insures me. They asked me to disassemble a couple furnaces and lay them out for their investigators to inspect. They asked me because they insured me, I don't sell heating oil, I don't install furnaces, and I didn't service any of the furnaces I was asked to remove. I was however asked in one instance by the state police fire marshal to perform the same service and even he admitted it was because he just didn't want to get that dirty.

After your rebuke of my supposedly erroneous statement, I retract my advice and will take my own suggestion and not reply to furnace questions on a tractor board. Knowing the folly of the entire idea.

Kirk Grau, carry on with my blessings in any direction you choose to follow.
 
I have read your previous posts and think you can work your way thru it if you really want to.
No short cuts as that is what gets you in trouble.
YES it is hard to find a honest good fuel oil furnace man, most half do the job with whatever is handy and sell uneeded modifications

you need the following at a bare minimum to accuratly work on fuel oil
combustion tester, see link
nozzle wrench; http://www.heatingandcoolingwarehouse.com/Oil_Nozzle_Wrench_p/34478.htm
manual; http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/techsuppt/product-manuals/6104%20BAFG%20R02%203706.pdf
PUT THE PROPER SIZE TYPE AND GPM NOZZLE IN as what is in there probably is what somebody had on there truck
smoke bomb the combustion chamber with the furnace blower on to see if anything comes out, probably will want to shut down all but one or two registers while doing this and make sure tht you can air out that room if it fills with smoke
lot more to this however read the manual thru all the way to understand how the burner operates, vacumn and clean the furnace very well, smoke bomb it and IF no smoke detected inside the house all smoke out the chimney then start with the proper nozzle, electrodes set right, clean fuel filter , fuel oil tank at least 1/4 full and never let it run out of fuel oil as the scum will plug a nozzle

good luck and contact me off site if you want to
combustion tester
 
Kirk,
Oil furnaces are a BPITA. You need to change the nozzle and filter every year or two and adjust the spark rods.

Check to make sure you have the air adjusted correctly, damper, and .02 inches of vacuum at the inspection door.

Check to see is chimney isn't choked with soot from an improperly adjusted air mix.

Buy a digital CO alarm.

All else fails, seek professional help.

Most people only fix their furnace when it gets cold. Wait a few more weeks and you will find all HVAC people working overtime.

I got rid of oil 30 years ago. Went to natural gas. 12 years ago converted to electric baseboard.

There is no maintance with electric baseboard. No fan motors, no ignitors, no brain boxes, no filters, no explosions, no CO, no cracked heat exchangers, no heat loss in trunk lines, set different rooms at exactly the temp you want. I won't have anything but electric. Very cheap to install too.
George
 
George I agree with the electric baseboard heat. Dad put it in the 1914 built farm house in 1969. Those heaters have not been touched since installed except for the one under the toilet. Water from condensation dripping on it rusted it out 3 years ago.

I put a electric cove heater above the toilet to replace it. I also put cove heaters in the addition I built for my daughers daycare as well. They are even nicer than the baseboard cause you don't have to worry about blocking the heat with furniture.

Cost about 1200 a year to heat that old 2000 square foot house per year.

I woke up everytime the forced air Geothermal furnace kicked in, for a month in my new house.

Geo is more efficant but I would rather have the electic cove heaters.

Gary
 
Have to agree with "old". Look for the simple things first. May be the pump shaft seal. If the fan vanes are oily or there is oil in the air tube this would indicate bad seal and hence bad smell. Water in the fuel is the enemy for these pumps. May have cracked/broken fire box too. Is this an old coal furnace converted to oil? May be time to scrap it if it gets too complicated.
 
Fuel oil, Lp, Geothermal and natural gas furnaces do not work without electricity either.

Wood stove yes. But no blowers or pumps.

Gary
 
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