2-4D and Heavy downpour like inches of rain

So, you guys who know or are in the know, what concerns should I have about this dumb@ss who just started spraying, did not finish and we get a wash out, the whole 30 acres is sloped to our 20 acre pond, I assume the bullhead and perch would be unsafe to eat, but what is the real deal. Don't you guys look at the weather before heading to the field with this expensive stuff ? I'm no tree hugger, but this is careless, and this is an old time farmer who is a big operator with a fleet of tractor trailers, grain elevator and so on, they ain't stupid and I have no issue with them, just this crap getting into our water, this is tied into a creek that goes to a bigger creek that dumps into the Hudson river, this stuff will be in the river tonight no doubt.

The crop is corn so I assume its 2-4D, need to look the other way now, I need to talk to Dave2 about people skills LOL !!!!!!!!!!

Thats pollution, no doubt about it. I have no idea what you could do but I'm sure its happening all over the world. Out here on the wet coast on Van Isle we have radioactivity from Japan showing up in Tuna off the coast of Ca.

There is more 2-4D used on lawns than there is in field corn annually. I think 2-4D usage in corn is like 5% and lawns is 12%. What stage is the corn at? Did it have any dry down time? Depending on what he was using there he could have added a sticker agent to the spray as well.

These days if the corn is up I doubt that they are using 2,4D. May be a Roundup product. I always look at rain and wind forcasts!!!!

Talk to them before using those special people skills. You remember that word assume: azz/u/me.

I'm pretty sure 2,4-D is labeled for aquatic weed control, so if that is indeed what they were using, probably won't make any difference, except maybe kill the plants in your pond.
David

Glyphosate (Roundup), dicomba, or even Liberty/Ignite more likely these days, 24D isn't used that much any more. Anyhow around here.

Several of those products can be rainsafe in an hour, so might not be off label????

If it were a version of glyphosate only, the soap used as a sufacant is more of a problem than the actual chemical, as glyphosate binds up with clay particles _real_ quick. It would be as bad as you dumping a big box of Tide in your pond - probably not a big deal in the big picture.

I do understand your concerns, and you stated them well.

--->Paul

I should add, y'all are right, probably RR corn, like what we were planting a few years ago with the farmer I was helping, which would be more likely to be another chemical or product like mentioned.

I'd have no reason to bust their chops, however I'm darned protective of this pond just the same and this is the first time that entire field has been planted all in corn in a long time, it was sod since '05, was all in hay, but the geese destroyed that, and my farmer friend gave up on that, and its a nice piece, especially for hay. The farmer friend used to plant it all in corn, but the erosion was making large ditches in it, so he went to strips, alfalfa, hay, corn etc. which is the right thing to do.

We used 2-4D on oats, probably what I was thinking. Now I've watched them mix and have ridden on the spray rig before, so I'm aware of some of the aspects of this, but am honest to admit I don't know a lot about the chemicals, additives and or applications. Things happen, but with the radar so available, I find it hard to believe, he'd send a guy out to spray that field today. He was in the midst of spraying when it opened up and I mean at least an inch in 15 minutes, more like 2" total or darned close. With the expense, and knowing whats involved be it hired out or in house. This farmer does his own, he combines all the corn and sells the grain, he has no livestock, just crops and trucking of same, so I would think he's on the ball, they are and have been successful, I tried to talk to them, when he was plowing but they kinda clammed up on me, so I left the conversation after a couple of questions then.

I'd like to know, but if I call their office, someone is going to get suspicious and clam up or think NYSDEC will be along or threatened to be. I'm not a jerk or enough of one LOL !!! to be like that, and is why I posted this here, more than likely my concerns are good, but any serious issues may not exist, and thats good with me, I just don't like not knowing when it comes to any chemicals.

I know them but not very well, even though I would meet with the old man in his/their scale house every so often as we would tip him a little cash to weigh our loads of hay. My farmer friend always let me know what they used in the fields, we never had any trouble with it before.

I'd like to know that I could fish and eat what I catch if so desired, if not ok..... NYSDEC warns you to eat very little fish from most places anyway so.... but this is a clean body of water spring and creek feed, 2 creeks that pass through a large marsh, so its filtered pretty good, we have no algae or stagnation problems. Its been a long haul for this to be what it is, years back, a whole bunch of houses dumped sewage in their, we dug up all the lines, severed em and the health dept, put dye in all their lines, they had to fix or install septic systems, the pond was more of a marsh and it was milfoil (sp) covered, stagnant mosquito infested cesspool, that I am sure was a serious health hazard.

Here is my view from the kitchen of the pond, the field is to the right that slopes to this pond.

Now, in this order, the buildings you see on the left, (many NY'ers would know) the "Want Ad Digest" is published there, next one is the new TSC, and beyond that is an excellent diesel shop, they do the best work in the area and it aint cheap LOL !






Field to the right, you can see its partially plowed, the hedgerow to the right is our old fields, now wooded, the farmer used to plant all that too.

Surely there is a buffer strip between the cornfield and your pond? If there is, and if it is of the recommended width, you really have nothing to worry about. If there is NOT a buffer strip, then you are as much at fault as your neighbor.

There is a slight buffer, but its not much. Now, I would like to think the farmer, not myself or the actual landowner, would be responsible for that. He's renting that ground for corn, from a neighbor, and I would think that a person doing agricultural work should be cognizant, a good steward of land, waterways and so on, it would be incumbent upon them to do the right thing, knowing its a protected wetland. I can't tell the neighbor and the farmer what to do on land I do not own, lease or control, I'm just the guy at the bottom of the hill, with expectations that the person above me is doing the right thing, I mean this is modern agriculture with all the latest technology isn't it ?

Billy NY- I am glad you are NOT my neighbor!

If he was using one of the rainfast Roundup formulations there's probably no harm...
If it was another post emerge like Laddok (Atrazine/Basagran)... I don't think it's nearly as rainfast. That stuff can run. How much harm it will do is another question...
Most likely he used Roundup tho. As herbicides go that's about as non-toxic as you get.

Rod

I usually leave comments like yours alone but your statements just somehow ruffled my feathers. I understand your concern about your pond. Then you start about whose responsibility it is to plant a buffer strip.

Maybe I should be worried about the Carbon 'footprint' YOU leave!

Why is that, I don't bother with people as much as possible, always try to help someone in need, now in this case, something new is going on, and it involves spray applied chemicals and a waterway, don't see anything wrong with discussing concerns, likely I'll never mention it to them unless there is something real serious about what they are doing.

All you're gonna get is opionions, especially without knowing what was sprayed; GENERALLY speaking, I wouldn't be concerned with any herbicide he'd be spraying on corn in this day and age..............

Oh, I get it, the illegal sewer lines, well that was done in the days when you could get away with it, blame the state, town and city, they never put in a line and there is a lot of houses on the state road. It had to be done and would have been done by anyone who knew about it, they have really wet back yards, very little space to put a septic, so dump it on our land, and into waterways that all their kids play in and frequent, naaah, they were all ticked off when the toilets backed up, but it was a huge wrong then, worse later on.

I'd seriously doubt that there will be anykind of problem; with anything that can be sprayed on standing corn.

Point taken, however, if you rent land, plant and do as you need to grow crops, you disregard how it effects someone else or in this case a waterway that was until now clean from all this ?

So I should afford myself license to enter neighbors land and create, build or install on their land, a buffer or means to prevent the side effects of what they are doing, to protect something I own and have an interest in, which includes being taxed.

Farmer could have plowed one less pass with that 6 bottom and theres a buffer, but no, we have to get every inch off that land and that buffer is going to cost us, so you the neighbor will have to pay me (farmer) to protect you against what we are doing. Where is the logic in that ?

He was out there pushing and mashing trees into our hedgerow, to clear the perimeter, had I not been right there watching, might have been a mess on my side, you do have to let people know you are around and are watching, not that these guys would do any harm, they too are particular about their land, and I have worked many fields that my farmer friend rented from them, he told me how to conduct our work there, and I personally cleared all their perimeters carefully like it was my land, about 3 years ago, after a big ice storm, I don't tread on people and I do not expect them to do it to me just the same.

Who owns the pond?If you don't,then you have a "problem",if you do and say it is a protected area,then like Rusty says you have to have to build the "buffer" strips,not the next door farmer.

I would agree, I do not know whats in that tank, and you know what I am going to find out, he;d have to be nuts to use anything detrimental to the adjacent pond, its so visible to the public and the darned state made a viewing area when they rebuilt the road, a viewing a whatever swath they own from centerline of road to where eminent domain ends and our land takes over, some darned activist is more likely to call and complain than I. I will have to chase that sprayer and see what it is, thinking about this and listening to y'all who know more than I about it, would seem to think now, its really nothing to worry about, but just the same how many others would at least ask, and try to understand due to a valid concern about chemical use nearby.

"He was out there pushing and mashing trees into our hedgerow, to clear the perimeter, had I not been right there watching, might have been a mess on my side, you do have to let people know you are around and are watching, not that these guys would do any harm, they too are particular about their land..."

You might want to re-read what you posted. First, you state that they were wanting to push debris onto your property and had YOU not been there, they would have done so.

Then you say "not that these guys would do any harm, they too are particular about their land.." Then what is the 'need' to "watch" them?

I disagree, you don't plow, disc, make the soil erode, wash down into anothers land or pond, and have this expectation that you can do all of that, because the guy you are dumping on is expected to protect himself,(land or pond) from what you are doing and causing. I don't buy that for a minute, here or elsewhere.

So if it were so, I am responsible, with no notice or letter of intent by the person who is working that ground, to enter that 150' buffer as NYS DEC specifies for most other activity around a protected wetland, and install something to protect us from what they are doing ?

Ag work is not immune from restrictions around wetlands, mind you in this state at least a farmer can plant as close as he can get, but just go in there with a yellow piece of equipment like a dozer and move some dirt, DEC would stop you and fine the heck out of you.

Again, farmer rents the land, plants on it, creates a disturbance, sprays or whatever you want to include in the performance of the work, and any adjacent landowner must immediately, without notice, knowledge or a darned MSDS sheet, be responsible for protecting against, herbicide, pesticide and or erosion etc.? So in a sense if it was erosion, and I did not want the silt in my pond, caused by them, I am responsible for putting up a silt fence on their land to prevent this ? If said farmer made a mistake, say the operator had dioxin or some really harmful substance in that tank, for some darned reason, for the point of this discussion when the problem arises directly from their negligence, the adjacent landowner must be responsible for that too, according to this kind of logic. So is the adjacent owner now responsible for the clean up, no darned way he is !

And please pardon my rhetoric, where the heck do you guys come up with this stuff, honestly I'd like to know, ( please keep it civil, I'm not tying to argue or be confrontational, it is a discussion and nothing more )

This may also help, the property line is now in the water, the level has raised long since it was a marsh, so we own to that line, the rest is the adjacent landowners, who rent to the farmer, mind you who is a respectable, successful farmer businessman in town for many many years 50-60, and its not me against them or anything of the sort. I can't make a buffer in water and I refuse to enter someone elses property to install something that protects me against what they are doing, it makes no darn sense and any person with common sense should understand that, sorry bud, you just can't plant that extra 10 feet, thats the only place for a buffer, now I realize this is getting silly as was mentioned its likely nothing, but if it were a real, legit concern, nothing wrong with talking about what should or could be done.

Do you own the pond or not?

I highly doubt if it's 2-4D. Could you smell it? You would smell it if 2-4D was used. A more likely herbicide is Roundup, which becomes inactive when it touches the soil, so they claim. Liberty could have been used too but I don't know that much about it. There are herbicides available that are safer to the crop and don't fume and move like 2-4d does. That's why we just don't use 2-4D on corn anymore. How tall is the corn? If it's over maybe 12" tall he would be a fool to broadcast 2-4D on it because The corn will flop over. If the corn is in the knee high range or more he would be using drops if it's indeed 2-4D but doing that makes the corn brittle and subject to green snap if the wind blows hard. It's possible he did use the stuff but unlikely. Jim

You're missing the point because you are analyzing what I wrote, either I missed a word in a sentence,or did not write clearly, sorry about that. The point is that I know how they are about their land, does not mean I know how they are on rented land, any farmer knows to beware of any tenant.

It was actually the old man in the loader, and he was cracking, pushing trees over, and my road is on the other side, they have lots of hired help too, I can't see who is in the cab without going out there. It was good to see the father and son working the fields and I would expect that I would not have to be there, but not knowing who was in the cab, you have to at least make yourself known, hired help could have made a mess, and this hedge is a natural fence, to keep 20-30 atvs out, my farmer friend punched one hole through it already and made a real problem for me, cost me money to close it off, trespassers wrecked it once, I blocked it again, had he left it alone, and that mind you is the reason. Now the point was, that I give them the benefit of the doubt, I was instructed, not asked to be very careful on their land and another farmers rented land, so I believe firmly these guys are credible in doing there work, still nothing wrong with checking on them, cause every other time I turn a blind eye, it costs me money, time or other problems, you cant armchair quarterback things like this, either get involved or stay home and keep your mouth shut LOL !!!!!!!!!!

All of it, and its on the tax bill every year, well as part of the overall property.

"This may also help, the property line is now in the water, the level has raised long since it was a marsh, so we own to that line"

So you don't own the entire pond?

I did not go near him, lightning, heavy rain on the horizon, he was still working, but like you say I know the smell of that 2-4D, corn last I checked was at least 4 leaves, last week or so, so it is taller by a week, plenty of rain field was fertilized and limed, he ought to get a good stand off it.

I was wondering about fumes and drift, like I mentioned, you guys know more than I on it, but I highly appreciate all the responses, banter and discussion, this is what you do before you go and call or start trouble, which I don't have any intent on doing, out of respect for them and respect for the people who participate and contribute here, I do appreciate everyone's thoughts opinions etc. !!!!

"You're missing the point because you are analyzing what I wrote, either I missed a word in a sentence,or did not write clearly"

I don't think you 'missed a word in a sentence' nor,'did not write clearly'. All we have to go on is what you post.

The property line is very close, would have to survey to determine precisely and see where it is compared to water line now. I know exactly where you are going with this, water is high, they own the pond now, water is low, line is on land we own it, so how do I keep their contaminated water all 1 foot of it, from my water and say I wanted my livestock to have access to it ? Install 1000 feet of sheet piling LOL !!!

"The property line is very close, would have to survey to determine precisely and see where it is compared to water line now. I know exactly where you are going with this, water is high, they own the pond now, water is low, line is on land we own it, so how do I keep their contaminated water all 1 foot of it, from my water and say I wanted my livestock to have access to it ? Install 1000 feet of sheet piling LOL !!!"

Again, I'm glad I don't have you for a neighbor. Good Luck and goodnight.

I'm glad too, I'd hate to live near a jerk like me too LOL !!! Enjoy your evening !

"I'm glad too, I'd hate to live near a jerk like me too "...

Yup!

Pull a sample and have it analyzed. Maybe nothing got in the pond. No sense getting all lathered up until you have some facts.

If it was Roundup, it"s ony active in plants so it tends to be fish friendly. If it was atrazine, there may be a problem.

LOL, come on now, you have to laugh, it aint all that serious.... we can't all get along.... or can we ? Tune in tomorrow folks never a dull moment I guarantee ya that, take er easy Greg !

That exactly right, I know how to find out, thinking someone indirectly could ask what they use, just have to go about it the right way, at this point it is spilled milk too not much you can do anyway. Naah, better get all "lathered up" and sue, no facts just sue the pants off em LOL, isn't that how the rest of the world works ? I cant even imagine, though I would not put it past some people to do just that.

Enjoy your thread, you have real concerns and a person wonders about what they don't know.

To me it looks like there is quite a grass buffer there, between the field and the pond? If a whole lot of terribles was leaching into the pond from the field, you'd be seeing that on the grass, I would think.

To be honest, as a farmer, I see how close the road is to the pond? I'd be more concerned about the grease, oil, exhaust, rubber bits, and 'out the window' debris that comes from the road. That seems the worse issue to me - again, a farmer.

The road crew just went past my county blacktop today - have a big arm out the side with a spritzer on it, drive by at 5mph, and the passenger pulls the trigger every now & then, I see a black fog coming out of it. Killing broadleaves I guess. Funny, to spray my fields I need to be close to the crop, not allow spray drift - they have a rig that would not pass muster for the county inspector if I had it in my field.

Typically corn is sprayed 2x a year? Notill would be a bit more. Probably putting down 2 pints or so of material per acre? On average. If he messed up this one time, the big rain blew out of nowhere, and he's got a fair grassy buffer strip....

I'd not worry about it too much. The roadway would bother me more.

If this were a spray every week all summer, and it rained every time, then it would bug me.

Just random thoughts, donno if I'm all right or all wrong.

--->Paul

Ask your neighbor what he sprayed, and if he has a copy of the label of what he sprayed. If roundup, there are many formulations, some of which are rainfast, in 20-30 minutes. Same thing for some broadleaf formulations. Around here, Mare's tail is getting resistant to RU, so it is common practice, to mix a little 2, 4-d, to kill out the resistant weeds. A good operator will alternate several different broadleaf chemicals, to combat resistance. If you ask nicely, with no chip on your shoulder, most people will reply honestly. I realize this is a neighbor, and you might have some unfriendly history. A smile and a question, sometimes gains more information, than a frown, and accusation.

kills the duckweed and watermill.

What is in the field he is spraying? That will lead you to what chemical he was laying down.

The neighbor that owns that adjacent land can enroll that buffer strip in the federal buffer program and get paid for it.

Watch the aquatic weeds in the pond if there are any for a few days after the storm. If they start dying, there was possibly some damaging chemical runoff into the pond during the t-storm runoff. Two inch in 15 minutes is probably going to cause more runoff than percolation down in the soil profile. The triazine family of chemical like atrazine combination products are highly water soluble. The existing grass buffer regardless who owns them are are going to help absorb the detrimental effect of atrazine related product. Buffers are good conservation. They may have caught any soil particles with chemical attached to them before they got into the pond water. But some of the chemical that was dissolved in storm runoff probably went into the pond. Depends how water soluble the chemical used was. Triazine family used to be widely applied on planted corn but don't know if it still is. Like Jerry said the only way to know for sure is pull a water sample out of the pond and have a water testing lab run an analysis.(expensive). Also watch your fish population, if they start to croak & float something could have washed into the water to cause that. A lot of environmental factors are active in ponds this time of year so it is hard to have cause and effect without a water sample analysis.

Corn

Neighbor who lives above the field, rented the field to a farmer, who has a large operation growing corn and harvesting the grain, I know them but not very well, they're not the talkative type, no bad history, just the first time they have worked this ground adjacent to us, going to find out today. I agree, I'd never accuse or speak in an unfriendly tone, these are hardworking respectable people, like most farmers.

Round up 22 oz. per acre , no concerns, spoke to the man direct, was able to get him on the phone, see what happens when we get rained out and sit home, nice talking with them too, figured I'd let y'all know.

Glad it worked out. Thanks for keeping us up-to-date.

Glad you got it worked out, thanks for the update.

--->Paul

I think 2 different conversations are going on, and you're not quite understanding each other?

You own a portion of the pond, the neighbor owns a portion of the pond, and the govt controls the pond.

That sort of arrangement causes a lot of friction, as different people want different things.

You see a nice pond, and wobnderful, and if it gets bigger so much the better, it must remain clear and improve.

The farmer might see what was once a small marsh, waste land, and now it's getting bigger, and causing nothing but problems. Woulda been better to drain it away when it was small, than to let it grow into the mess it is now.

The govt like to create job security and ties everyone's hands with paperwork and nonesense.

In the end everyone wants a cvlean world, a nice looking one, but they have different versions of whatis nice & clean. Me, I'd see a corn field as a bueatiful thing, the ugly stuff is the big buildings in the distance, the roadbed wall.

Corn looks great!

Pond looks ok, but seems like a necessary hazard....

It's all in who is looking, who decides what is pretty, what is wrong.....

Those of us farmers that have tried to deal with water issues have many stories to tell of how wrong the govt & neighbors with ponds have treated them....

You are probably getting a spill-over of that.

Since you do not own the whole pond, you don't get to control the whole pond. Some of your comments wre a little bit 'it's all mine' when that perhaps isn't ttrue, and you are hitting a nerve there.

It apears the farmer did pretty good, didn't pioison your portion of the pond, and all is well. But - trying to be nice, still - you were pretty close to being one of those 5-acre fellows who just runs around talking bad about the neighboring farmers but knows nothing about farming.....

I said close, didn't say you were.

That brings up a lot of bad memories for many of us farmers.

I'm glad you got answers from the neighbor farmer, and seem satisfied with the results. You do have some good concerns, farmers need to follow the rules just like anyone else.

The city down the road a ways, their sewer pipe under the river broke during a flood, was going to be 90 days or more the pipe would feed sewer water of 10,000 directly into the river. That was determnined to be no problem, just happenstance,noneed for anyone to look over here....

Around the same time, a dairy farmer in the same county had his lagoon fill up with rain water, so was 40% manure, 60% rainwater. His permit only allowed injecting the manure, but it was far too wet to do anything in the fields for weeks (just as it was far too wet to work on the flood-damaged sewer pipe...). The county & state did not allow him to set up a sprinkler syatem to emergency surface apply some watery manure from his lagoon. In a couple weeks the lagoon breached, manure spilled out - what else would happen?

The county sent himn a fine for $100,000 for the 'spill'.

Took a long time in court, and lots of lawyer money, to have the judge look that over & say it was the county's fault for not letting him have any options at all.

Who gets treated better by those govt officials? This in one example.

I have a fuield that is tiled, but poorly. The county says I can't do anything to improve the piece, because they looked it over in the 1980's and it's a wetland. However, it's been tiled since 1950's, and it's been farmed for cropland more years than not. no matter, the govt office doesn't know their is any tile there, ythey are unwilling to look at the property first hand, and detrermined, from their desk, that it's a wetland and that's that.

The same county charges taxes on that prroperty as class A crop land, because it's improved and has been cropped sometimes.

Fair? Farmers getting any breaks????

You're just hearing about our side of things is all.

--->Paul

--->Paul