Hydraulic pump shaft/adaptors

Inno · May 11, 2012

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I blew the front mounted hyd. pump on my 202 MF. It is a Cessna K 20644 ICEH and from what I understand you can not rebuild them once they are worn out....and this one is worn out! Has anyone had any luck finding a suitable replacement? I can find pumps that have the same or close enough specs to work but the shafts are always different. Mine has a 3/4" keyed shaft which is 1 1/4" long. Are there adaptors available. One thought I had was to get one with a 5/8" keyed shaft (I've seen a few that would work) and shim it with some 1/16" shim stock. Or would I be better off trying to find/make an adaptor or trying to find/make a new drive shaft for it?
Any thoughts appreciated. I've spent too much on this old tractor to stop now!! :?

Anonymous-0 · May 11, 2012

First of all it is not uncommon to need a replacement hydraulic pump that is no longer manufactured. When I taught a hydraulic pump clasess for my former employer we would taken worn pumps, measure them up and then find a suitable replacement pump. Most pump manufactures also have optional shaft sizes too. Send me a phone number and we can discuss it.

jfharper · May 11, 2012

(quoted from post at 09:26:41 05/11/12) I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I blew the front mounted hyd. pump on my 202 MF. It is a Cessna K 20644 ICEH and from what I understand you can not rebuild them once they are worn out....and this one is worn out! Has anyone had any luck finding a suitable replacement? I can find pumps that have the same or close enough specs to work but the shafts are always different. Mine has a 3/4" keyed shaft which is 1 1/4" long. Are there adaptors available. One thought I had was to get one with a 5/8" keyed shaft (I've seen a few that would work) and shim it with some 1/16" shim stock. Or would I be better off trying to find/make an adaptor or trying to find/make a new drive shaft for it?
Any thoughts appreciated. I've spent too much on this old tractor to stop now!! :?

Inno,
That's funny, I just replied to your other post yesterday (the power steering success story) regarding this exact question...what pump were you running in the front, b/c mine is going out too and my power steering is going out as well.

I remember looking into this before, I'll try to track down the info I once found and post here...my tractor is a 205 ind. I wanted to replace my front pump with enough flow and pressure for the loader, 3 pt rams on the rear and the power steering setup like you have...but I was wondering if you put a beefier setup on the front...sounds like we have the same old cessna pump...I'll try to locate the numbers and stuff I found before, I remember finding a website with some pumps and talking to the guy who sold them that gave me info on the mounting bracket size which I think runs in A or B type applications...I think ours is A.

I'll post back after work today.

Anonymous-0 · May 11, 2012

They make whats called a Lovejoy connector that you can get different size for the different size shafts. Don t know how much clearance you have , but just a thought.

John

Inno · May 11, 2012

Thanks for the replies. I know it's not THAT complicated, Surplus Center has a few pumps that would be good candidates.
I think I'll just order one that fits my needs, perhaps oversize it a little bit to compensate for my power steering so I can speed up the loader a bit. Then I'll adapt as necessary.
The biggest question I had I answered for myself this morning and that was if the pump is CW or CCW......I fired up the engine (sans pump) and had a look. CCW......
Mine failed catastrophically, all of a sudden there was a puff of smoke (as hyd. fluid hit the hot engine) and then a constant spray which was coming from the shaft which runs the pump and spaying on the water pump pulley and getting flung around all over the front of the engine. It was only a seal that went but from what I've read the reason for the seal to pop like that is because the pump is so worn out it's not holding the fluid from getting past the bushings.

wisbaker · May 11, 2012

Shafts usually aren't that hard to make find your
self a machine sop that does job work and they can
build you what you need, a new shaft or an adapter.

Anonymous-0 · May 11, 2012

The A flange pilot is 3.250 in diameter, the B pilot is 4 inch in diameter.

Inno · May 11, 2012

So just to confuse me even more, I'm now not sure if I need a CW or CCW pump. When facing the front of the tractor the engine spins CW....I think.........therefore I would require a CCW pump?

Anonymous-0 · May 11, 2012

When you have the pump setting in front of you, is the suction port on the right or the left side? Also does it make a difference in your application if the belly of the pump is up or down?

Inno · May 11, 2012

When I am facing the front of the tractor the suction is actually on the bottom but there is a port on the top right side which is marked "in". The pressure port is on the top left of the pump.

I don't think it matters which way the belly goes although I will have to double check that. I think there is plenty of room for it to go either way. I will snap some pictures tomorrow.

Inno · May 11, 2012

This is the pump I have in mind.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-2149-A&catname=hydraulic
It has the same shaft size and type as mine. I have sent an email to the supplier to find out what the spacing is on the mounting holes and if it's close enough I am going to order one. It has a slightly higher output per rev. (2.5 cu in as opposed to 2.02 for the orig. one) but I think that might work out to be a good thing.

Anonymous-0 · May 12, 2012

See post below. That pump has a 2 Bolt B flange. There are standards for pump flanges. If your pump now has a 4 inch pilot and 2 bolt holes it will have the same dimensions for the bolt holes. If you have a 4 inch pilot and 4 bolt holes they will not be the same. I take it you are running a flow divider now for your power steering.

Inno · May 12, 2012

The pump I have now has 2 bolt holes. Yes I am running a divider now for the power steering, priority to the PS and all else to the loader/backhoe.
I will measure it up just to be sure but it sounds like I found my pump!
Thank you for the help.

Inno · May 12, 2012

Here is a shot of the tractor where the pump bolts on to. I can't seem to upload any more pictures.

As far as clearance, I think there is enough room for the belly of the pump, the old one had the belly at the top. If not I am not opposed to cutting out the bottom of the cavity it fits in to. There is a skid plate underneath it that will protect it.

Inno · May 12, 2012

Not sure if the picture is showing up. After taking some measurements and finding a document which shows the measurements of the different types of pump flanges this is what I conclude.
I have a type A flange on the tractor (2 bolt, 3.25" pilot) and the pump is a type B which is a larger mount. So I would have to adapt, probably with a plate of some sort from type A to type B.

jfharper · May 12, 2012

(quoted from post at 08:34:55 05/12/12) Not sure if the picture is showing up. After taking some measurements and finding a document which shows the measurements of the different types of pump flanges this is what I conclude.
I have a type A flange on the tractor (2 bolt, 3.25" pilot) and the pump is a type B which is a larger mount. So I would have to adapt, probably with a plate of some sort from type A to type B.

Inno,
Currently have my main computer down, working from ipod. I found a bunch of links before about cessna pumps. My pump is the same number as your. Type A hole flange and what I remember mine runs CW but my engine is the 3 cyl perkins deisel so maybe runs opposite than your gas. I recall calling the surplus center and he told me how to determine rotation. Can't recall what he said but maybe a call would help you too. As far as pressure and flow goes, from the links I found I seem to recall our Cessna had a flow around 10 gpm @ 1200 rpm and 12 gpm @ 1400 so 1.87, 1.92 or 2.02 cu in/rev would be minimum. I was always curious about how much flow and pressure the external stuff needed. One link someone said 10 gpm is enough for the loader. But if you need 3 gpm for your ps then how much for your backhoe or I have 3 pt rams on rear then how much flow and how much pressure is needed and how much is too much...don't want to bow ram seals.

jfharper · May 12, 2012

Another thing is my drive shaft fits a 3/4" keyed pump shaft and my pump shaft is 1 1/4" as well. I've also seen the pumps you've seen at surplus but couldn't figure how to make the less expensive pumps work b/c they had 5/8" shaft or Type B flange...the pump that fits my rig costs twice what these pumps run.

Anonymous-0 · May 12, 2012

You have a phone number or e-mail? If you are running both a backhoe, a loader and power steering you may want to rethink the whole thing!

Inno · May 12, 2012

[email protected]

I was already running the power steering and loader together and it wasn't an issue. The loader was a little bit slower but not significantly.
There is a manual selector for running the backhoe and when it's is pulled out there is no flow to the pwr. steering or loader so it worked fine just as intended. The old pump was rated at 17 gpm at 2000 rpm and the one from SS should give me somewhere around 21.65 gpm at 2000 rpm if my calculations are correct, this should help with the loader speed when using the power steering.

jfharper · May 12, 2012

OK, got my main computer up and running now, here are a bunch of links I saved with information, some pertaining to this topic, some extra info:
http://knighthawksupply.com/cessnapumpid.htm
http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=mf&th=93463%3E
http://forums.hydraulicspneumatics.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8641063911/m/8851092081

Hope these help.

Inno · May 13, 2012

Thanks for the links, there may be some important information there.

jfharper · May 15, 2012

Inno,
Not sure if you've ordered your pump already, but I found on Big Dean's website (while trying to fix my power steering problem) that he recommends at least 17 GPM for the front pump to work the loader well...here is the link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050309223128/http://hometown.aol.com/daustin62/Bigdeantipindex.html
look under Remote Hydraulics and read that section.

jfharper · May 15, 2012

Inno,
One more thing, I called surplus center again, and talked with a tech, they said pump rotation is when you are looking at the pump and the shaft of the pump is pointed at you...so just determine what rotation your engine rotation is and what rotation the pump would be and your all set...sounds like you were right and I was wrong earlier...just thought I'd help with that.

Hydraulic pump shaft/adaptors

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