Pole Barn Posts

Lots of various discussions about proper treatment for poles. Here's the way to figure it out, since there are about a dozen or more different chemicals (CX-A, CCA, MCA, SBX, ACQ-B, etc., etc. )
1. Get the little end label off the pole and look and find the ESR number. For example, local lumber yard here stocks treated posts that comply with ESR-2240, which is the report, the third-party approval document that the manufacturer has performed.
2. Google or BING web search, in this case, the number "ESR-2240".
3. Scroll down a bit in ESR-2240, and you'll find Table 1;
Above Ground 0.06 pcf
Ground Contact - General 0.15 pcf
Ground Contact - Critical Structural 0.23 pcf

Look in Table 2, and you'll see that General is for fence posts, decks, items that will be replaced avery few years.
Critical Structural is for permanent building poles.

So there it is. Don't necessarily believe what the yard salesman says "Yeah it's rated Ground Contact."
You WANT Critical Structural.

Is this what you're referring to George?


http://www.osmosewood.com/pdfgallery/pdfs/mp-icc-2240.pdf

In my opinion, you'd have to have a screw loose in your head to invest in a pole barn and use poles with only a .23 pcf treatment. No wonder why so many complain about poles rotting. Often lumber yards do not stock the correct stuff and you have to order it in. And yeah - it's usually a mistake to take the advice of lumberyard counter person.

UC4B is the standard for poles in pole barns. That calls for a treatment of ACQ .31 pcf minimum or CC-A .60 minimum. And if you have the bucks, following the UC4C standard is even better. CC-A is the #1 choice for wood foundations in residential homes and the poles, studs, and plywood are CC-A .60.

UC4B — Wood and wood based materials used
in contact with the ground either in severe environments,
such as horticultural sites, in climates with
a high potential for deterioration, in critically
important components

UC4C — Wood and wood based materials used
in contact with the ground either in very severe
environments or climates demonstrated to have
extremely high potential for deterioration, and in
critical structural components

641Dave - Yep, that's the one for MCA treatment for Lifewood, made by Osmosewood.

LJD - What I was trying to get across, is there's a dozen or more different chemicals, and corresonding different of the manufacturer's approval documents. For example;
CA-C ESR-1721
CX-A ESR-1863
SBX NER-648
uCA-C ESR-1721
MCQ ESR-1980
And on and on and on. They're different chemicals.

I'd think a person ought to check that little label, see which chemical it is, and then look up how much is required for Structural Critical, and not just rely on the lumber yard salesman.

Everything I put in the gruond 15 years ago, based on lumber yard, is rotting away.

Pole buildings you see going up around here all have steel C (or U) chanel buried/concreted to the required depth and sticking out 4-6 ft with the wood pole setting on a cleat (??) enough off the ground to be out of water and bolted to the chanel. If the post is ruined somehow, it's easy to replace.

I posted some links yesterday, one was Osmose, that provided some limited uses of CCA still available, also posted the EPA guidelines, some interesting reading, I would agree with the .60 CCA still being the best material, that and well drained soils.
YT Discussion

Let's say you have no idea what kind of materials your barn was built out of. That's water under the bridge at this point. Barn is built and you aren't going to tear it down. What can a person do to extend the life of any post that is 4 ft under ground? My termite man thinks it's a good idea to termite treat. Is there anything else? I know the EPA wouldn't approved, could a person dig a small trench around the barn and brush used oil, deck sealer or anything else on the bottom board 2x8 that is in contact with the ground?

Open for ideas to solve a possible mistake.

George

I'm still using a pole barn I built in 1970 and the poles are fine. But they are CCA. I also just used some treated poles that were put in the ground in 1937. Power company just pulled them out and I'm making a bridge with them. Still sound. 75 years in the ground and still fine!

I must admit that when CCA became hard to get -and ACQ or someother EPA substitute came out- it got harder to figure out. I DID find out fast how clueless many people in lumberyards are. I got in the habit of getting the phone numbers off the treatment tags and then calling the companies that sell the poles. Every time I did that - their info was different then what the year people were telling me.

The two lumber yards near me stock 6" X 6" poles up to 18 feet and none are treated well enough that I'd waste my time using them in ground. I have to special order what I want when I need it.

Here are some poles I'm using right now from 1937 and 1994

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=100_8958.jpg" target="_blank"> </a>

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=100_8960.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=100_8955.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

The railroad and some dock builders are using .1 and 1.5 CCA poles but I don't know anywhere close that I can buy them. I'm sure it's special order. I CAN get .8 CCA but it's expensive. It IS allow in residential as long as it's not exposed where someone can touch it.

I remember past discussions of this and I would have to agree about lumber yard sales people lacking information or do not take the time to educate themselves on wood preservation methods currently in use and available. When I worked for a local lumber yard, you could source anything available, we used to pick up materials from a variety of sources, the gents behind the counter always knew the materials.


I mentioned in the previous discussion of those 6x6x18's I show in the photos, they were from Holbrook, whom uses the OSMOSE treatment of CCA and these were delivered in the 70's, my father never used them and some of them did take on carpenter ants, but the ants were particular and stayed within a few pieces, the rest I salvaged and did what you see in the photos.

I have some power company poles that were pulled in '06 and and some of them were from the 30's when the lines were installed, they're still useable. Ironically, brand new poles they installed for 30,000 volt circuits, double posts with x braces up top, ants bored right in and moved in, they periodically dig them up to check, bet these won't last like the others, they look to be the same as old creosote type, but can't be the same

George--those retention values are extremely low and i would never recommend anyone using them. The current most used standards are AWPA and I specify 1.0 cca for ground contact---for poles in water I specify 2.5 for cca---our local timber suppliers can furnish treated lumber to those specs.

I used the 6by6 post on one a while back. I paint the post with asphalt paint and let them dry. Dug my hole and them with some chloradane for the termites ( it is banned by the epa ) then set them in concrete. I have seen telephone poles get eaten up in 10 years from the concrete. I hope it last awhile.

in the post that the osmose tag that is shown, that is a periodic inspection date tag, the first tag with 37 should be the date of treatment,i remember replacing some transmission poles a couple years ago that some were dated as early as 1941 that were still sound,but they were close grain pine that were creosote treated,funny thing everyone is weaned of creosote treated material except the railroad

Checked last night and the 4x6 post at home depot are uc4a.




dave2, if you ever find yourself in the position to snap some pics of those building techniques, I'd for one appreciate it. I'm assuming it's like what ohiojim is talking about here with this perma-colom.

http://www.permacolumn.com/default.asp

By the way, has anyone here ever priced the Perma-Columns? I wonder what a 16 or 18 foot pole cost?