Fire Dept.Issue

Poor Farmer 830 · Mar 14, 2012

I am on our local volunteer fire dept. We are a
small community and run on average a 100
medical/fire calls a year. Two weeks ago we had a
call after the call a fireman left the station and
went out to get into his truck and got into a
disagreement with another gentleman in the heat of
debate the fireman who was off fire dept property
backed up and hit the gentleman he was arguing
with and then pulled forward and ran over his leg.
Now the fireman is facing a lawsuit and wants the
fire dept to cover all cost and then turn around
and sue the other gentleman, he is claiming he is
covered by the fire dept until he returns home
from a call, I personally think its bull crap and
is trying to save money out of his pocket for his
ignorance, I"m just curious what some of you guys
might think.

BushogPapa · Mar 14, 2012

Well...it may be that he is "covered" no-a-days...
BUT..when I was on, you were covered to the place of the accident or Fire and Back to the Dept..
Anything else (on the way home) was NOT a Fire Dept concern..
Ron..

B Dean · Mar 14, 2012

Who did the truck that ran over the guy belong to? Insurance on that vehicle probely would have to pay ??? better talk to a lawyer laws can be different than we think.When it comes to a judge making a choice who knows??

Glenn Warner · Mar 14, 2012

I'm not a fireman , but my thought is ,does the fire company really need him as a member of the fire company.If I was a member of a volunteer company , I would ask for a vote by the members to get him out of the company. Most volunteer companies have enough issues without dealing with A**holes.

Poor Farmer 830 · Mar 14, 2012

Thats the way I think it should be your covered from the time the page goes out till the time your back in quarters, the worst part is he does nothing for the fire dept he doesnt go on calls makes some meetings but just signs the book and walks back out, He doesnt deserve to be on the dept.

JOHNNYfromMI · Mar 14, 2012

This is a question for a lawyer. But I think he is covered from the first page till he arrives back home or where he was when the call went out.

JOHNNYfromMI · Mar 14, 2012

This is a question for a lawyer. But I think he is covered from the first page till he arrives back home or where he was when the call went out.

Hal/Eastern WA · Mar 14, 2012

I think your fire district commissioners need to talk to a good lawyer, who can research case law, state law and maybe even the common law. It also might be a good idea to talk to the district"s insurance company.

If the "gentleman" was hit by a FIRE TRUCK, I think the fire district might have liability. If both combatants were firemen who were arguing about the call they had just been on, the fire district would probably have some liability.

But in my non-lawyer opinion, if the guy hit someone with his own truck, off fire department property, and the disagreement did not involve anything about the fire department, it seems pretty unreasonable to expect the fire department to have any liability.

Was law enforcement called? If so, how did they sort out the problem? Was somebody drunk? Was the truck driver assaulted by the guy who ended up injured when the truck driver was trying to get away to avoid being further assaulted? Might this all be decided in criminal court?

Most small volunteer fire departments have almost no budget, but I would strongly suggest spending a bit of money for the services of a real good attorney, not just one of the commissioner"s brother in law who happens to have gone to law school. Some lawyers are LOTS better than some others...Good luck!

Anonymous-0 · Mar 14, 2012

This is too profound for us.I hope you have dropped kicked this to the Fire Service Head Office.They have Lawyers and you will need them.Also was the injury caused intentionally [police matter] Too many questions and laws.
But getting rid him as a volunteer doesn"t make the problem go away.

Glenn Warner · Mar 14, 2012

Bendee ,
you're right ,getting rid of him as volunteer fireman doesn't make the problem go away ,but its a start , plus it sends a message to the rest of the members that there is a 0 tolerance policy for this type behavior. Glenn

Funtwohunt · Mar 14, 2012

The way I understood it for the 32 years I was on a volunteer FD. I was told when I was chief 8 years and a few other times it came to question when coverge started. In Nebraska I was told it started at the time the pager goes off no matter where you are and ends when you return to the place you left (work, etc.) or home. Obviously detouring along the way doesn't count. I would say in this case either or both men took actions that was unbecoming of a fireman whether on a call or not and one or both should be removed from the fire dept. I wouldn't want this type of person to be representing any FD I belong to. It was very un-professional to say the least. As far as who is liable I would ask the question to see if was directly FD related, or a mis- handled personnal matter as result of the call or something completely different. It no doubt a tough one to have to sort out. Funtwohunt

Poor Farmer 830 · Mar 14, 2012

It has been brought up to our trustee's and they are looking into it and no the other man was not a fireman, and it was his personal truck and off fire dept property, the worse thing is he stood over the victim and then proceeded to use foul language at him, def. not professional in my book. I was just curious what others might think I completely agree with him being kicked off he is not a person who well represents the dept. Thanks for all the feedback I just wanted to hear some others opinions,

Chuck (CA) · Mar 14, 2012

I don't know, but I can't imagine that this guy really thinks that he can do whatever he wants carte blanche and make the department responsible..How about he stops at a bar on the way home (where he received the call), gets drunk (You see where I'm going) and the department is responsible for his actions?

donjr · Mar 14, 2012

While it may be true that HE would be covered were he to have an accident, altercations arrising from HIS actions are not. At best, he may be accused of representing the FD in a negligent and unbecoming manner. Depending on the circumstances, a very stiff suspension to expulsion from the department may very well be in order, with approval from the Board of Directors after a proper hearing. But, I feel any altercation and the subsequent actions were, if not initiated by the member, elevated by him, and are not the responsibility of the department.

IOWA NORTHEAST · Mar 14, 2012

May want to cotact the state fire association, they may have some ideas, they always want their dues.

Is their any pay for each fireman, if so when does the pay stop?

Did he sign out on a run sheet before the argument? Seems like he is grasping at straws, but then anyone who has been to court will wonder about the outcome.

RodinNS · Mar 14, 2012

Certainly get a good lawyer involved on the department's behalf right away. Then make sure you get this twit off the department (for just cause.... somehow). Nobody needs that around.
As far as the department being responsible... I would say that if he was in his own personal vehicle, OFF department property... and not conducting department business... then most logical people are going to conclude that the department has no place in the middle of his mess.

I don't know where you're at... but here... a volunteer is excused from personal liability for actions taken while in service to their organization (fire department) PROVIDED that there is no gross negligence involved. If the plaintiff can establish gross negligence... then all bets are off. Methinks the department needs to put as much distance between itself and this fellow as fast as it can.

Rod

Poor Farmer 830 · Mar 14, 2012

ya we are paid, and ya he signed the run sheet and walked out, so i agree he was done and leaving, this guy is always one to push the envelope, he has many other problems within the village

MarkB_MI · Mar 15, 2012

He should report it first to his insurance company. It's very likely they will come after the fire department anyway, but his insurance covers him for liability when he's behind the wheel of his car. It would be no different than if you had an accident in your personal vehicle while running an errand for your employer.

Now, if he has no insurance, then he should go to jail. And of course the fire department will be next in line for liability.

cannonball · Mar 15, 2012

a fireman left the station and
went out to get into his truck

I think this said it all

JRSutton · Mar 15, 2012

If he was off the clock, and off the property, he's got as much cause to sue the fire department as he does the gas station where he filled his tank.

Less even!

Having said that though, we live in strange times. Lawsuits like this don't have to make sense.

There are people who understand the system and are more than willing to capitalize on its flaws.

He can bring a frivilous lawsuit against the fire department, and the fire department is going to have to make a difficult decision:

1.) Spend tons of money and time defending themselves
or
2.) Settle out of court and save a ton of money - pay the guy 20 grand or so to make the case go away. His lawyer will take a third of that, and he'll get the rest. It's just not enough money to fight over.

Not only that, but that locks him in solidly at the fire department. If he doesn't have a track record of written issues before this incident, any good sleazy lawyer would have a field day with work issues brought up against him AFTER this. Proving it's retribution.

THAT lawsuit would be the big one.

Greenday · Mar 15, 2012

In our department he would also be off the fire department!

MFPoor · Mar 15, 2012

Fire dept liability does NOT include personal liability of members when NOT engaged in dept activities. As mentioned, and according to our dept's by-laws, he would be "excused" from the dept after attempting to drag said dept into his personal matters. Unless he was driving a dept vehicle, there is NOTHING tying the dept to the incident. Members are NOT covered "until the get home". We've had a couple incidents over the years that happened ON DEPT PROPERTY, but were strictly "personal matters". (Wrecks in parking lot, one just property damage, other personal injury) All involved were "off the clock". Dept had no liability in those cases either.

Let him get his own lawyer.

Dept or county/city/town should already have an attorney, who should be able to clarify specifics of the case.

Poor Farmer 830 · Mar 15, 2012

So your saying since I am also a fireman and decided to go out friday night and hit and kill someone I am still covered, because I am a fireman. I dont agree with that at all, I am proud to help serve the community but I am responsible for all my actions and don't expect someone else to cover it for me.

dhermesc · Mar 15, 2012

So if he robbed a bank on his way home the Fire Dept should cover his lawyer fees too?

The arguement was not part of his duties as a fireman and was not part of "traveling to and from" his duties.

Get your insurance company involved as soon as possible and derail this before it goes any further.

Dan in North Houston · Mar 15, 2012

Interesting to see the replies to this one. I think a lot of people are trying to use common sense in a potential lawsuit situation. That's the first mistake.
The lawyer for the victim of the alleged assult with a motor vehicle will try to establish that the assult occured on FD property (or reasonable proximity to) while the assailant was on FD business, thus opening up the FD to liability. It will be up to the FD to prove that this was not the case. I'm not a lawyer, but you can see this coming a mile away. They will always try to rope in any potential party, particularly ones with big insurance policies. The FD needs a lawyer now.

JayinNY · Mar 15, 2012

Around here our town FD always have breakfasts, they need donations ect, just to operate, and be there for us. I don't agree that the dept should cover this. That sounds like a lost temper and the guy should not have acted that way, good luck.

pat sublett · Mar 15, 2012

Not all laws are equitable. I use to be on the county tax board. The tax appraisers used their personal vehicle to drive around the county and asses property. One employ didn't have liability insurance on her vehicle, had an accident. It was questionable whose fault it was but, the other person sued and it cost the county 300,000
dollars. Another example I was the District Manager of a telephone company. A repairman was called in after hours on an emergency. He had been drinking, had an accident on the way to the telephone building in his personal vehicle. Other party sued and the telephone company had to pay even though he was on the way to work. His time technically started when he answered the phone based on union contract. I suspended him for drinking on the job and lost the arbitration. Bottom line anytime an individual and an entity are involved, the entity loses. It doesn’t matter that it is a volunteer Organization. I had a truck hauling a dozer hit a black family that run a stop sign. Cost the telephone co. 3 million. I have other examples but this post is too long

RodinNS · Mar 15, 2012

Need to be carefull here...
With a volunteer department or paid on call department... your duties start when the pager goes off and most generally do not conclude until you return to your home or place of work where you were when the page went out. Any jerkoff lawyer could pick up on that as that is established practice in many places.... then turn that around and state that since he had not returned home... he is still on duty.
I don't see what robbing a bank has to do with anything really since that's a criminal matter, not a civil matter such as this... but in a sense the guy could establish by tradition that he was still 'on duty'.

Really... he needs a lawyer AND the department needs another separate lawyer to defend itself firstly against him and secondly against the lawsuit that will come from the other party anyhow... knowing that there will be a large CGL policy on the department.

Rod

gasfsd · Mar 15, 2012

What color was the driver of the truck hauling the dozer?

Anonymous-0 · Mar 15, 2012

Poor Farmer830, I have been in the Vol FD service for 25 yrs in PA. Things may be differnt from state to state, but in PA he is covered until he returns home. As a example, One of our guys just hit a deer on his way home from the fire dept. after a call in his personal car. The fire dept. insurance paid the claim. Our insurance carrier never asked a qustion, just wrote him out a check.

Janicholson · Mar 15, 2012

After reading the comments I will add that the moment he started a discussion with a non-participant in the fire call, he was not going home. It was no different than if he took a ball bat from his trunk and whacked someone. Vehicular assault is a not on the way home list of turns and stops. Jim

James Williams · Mar 15, 2012

I agree with Jim,Stoping to argue with someone was his first stop,and his coverage should end then,no different than stoping and going shoping.

jimmy

casenut1 · Mar 15, 2012

you said he signs the book and then leaves. do you get paid a stipend ? sounds like he is just after a little money.

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