Modern spark plugs

Had a gas 560 once that would soot foul plugs every couple months. During a tune-up I switched to UD-16s and the owner said, "They will never work". He was right, I was installing Auto-lites in about a week. The tractor has a problem, it refuses to rev cleanly when the throttle is yanked open. It will back fire through the carb unless the throttle is carefully opened, and will continue to do so until it reaches 190deg., and not one degree before. Completely dismantled the carb, soaked it in carb cleaner, re-assembled with a new kit. No change. Must have had the carb off 20 times changing the float setting, the problem moved around but didn't go away. Checked ignition timing, that was okay. Manifold vacuum 17", I thought that would indicate no mechanical defects, am I accurate on that? Finally called Denny's Carb Shop and he said, "It's plugged up". Wouldn't tell me what was "plugged up", only that it would cost 100.00 or so for him to rebuild my carb. He went on to say,"That engine will never run right unless you run my 55,000 volt coil and electronic ignition, because all spark plugs have resistors in them, mandated by the EPA, to reduce emissions". I thanked him and hung up. Now I'm confused. I have been seeing a lot of plugs lately that have "R" in the part number. But I also see a lot of C-263s with their original coils, breaker points, and a ratty set of plug wires that run just fine. The 560 I was working on, the reason it took so long to foul the plugs, is they worked it pretty hard, all wide-open throttle. It's duties were generally the lagoon pump or the grinder-mixer. It would rev up okay if it was on the verge of overheating. I'm guessing that some of the soot generated during warm-up got burned away in the course of the day. What do you guys think? thanks, Fritz

I run Auto-Lite 3116 in my old engines. Your problem sounds to be the carb dumping too much fuel and may be a simple adjustment. As far as a super-duper zappem high energy coil, it wasn't required when it was built, and its not needed today. Adjust what you need on the carb and replace the main jet if its been bored out. As long as its soot and not oil burning, your heading in the right direction. Parts people want to sell parts, remember that and get a second opinion.

(quoted from post at 08:11:59 02/29/12) Had a gas 560 once that would soot foul plugs every couple months. During a tune-up I switched to UD-16s and the owner said, "They will never work". He was right, I was installing Auto-lites in about a week. The tractor has a problem, it refuses to rev cleanly when the throttle is yanked open. It will back fire through the carb unless the throttle is carefully opened, and will continue to do so until it reaches 190deg., and not one degree before. Completely dismantled the carb, soaked it in carb cleaner, re-assembled with a new kit. No change. Must have had the carb off 20 times changing the float setting, the problem moved around but didn't go away. Checked ignition timing, that was okay. Manifold vacuum 17", I thought that would indicate no mechanical defects, am I accurate on that? Finally called Denny's Carb Shop and he said, "It's plugged up". Wouldn't tell me what was "plugged up", only that it would cost 100.00 or so for him to rebuild my carb. He went on to say,"That engine will never run right unless you run my 55,000 volt coil and electronic ignition, because all spark plugs have resistors in them, mandated by the EPA, to reduce emissions". I thanked him and hung up. Now I'm confused. I have been seeing a lot of plugs lately that have "R" in the part number. But I also see a lot of C-263s with their original coils, breaker points, and a ratty set of plug wires that run just fine. The 560 I was working on, the reason it took so long to foul the plugs, is they worked it pretty hard, all wide-open throttle. It's duties were generally the lagoon pump or the grinder-mixer. It would rev up okay if it was on the verge of overheating. I'm guessing that some of the soot generated during warm-up got burned away in the course of the day. What do you guys think? thanks, Fritz

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Denny's is still in business?
Those 560s have been running just fine for over 50 years now without a 55,000 volt coil OR electronic ignition. Autolite 388 plugs along with some solid core plug wires is as good as it gets.

Does the carburetor still have the electric solenoid? If so, you might want to get rid of it and replace with the adjustable load screw set-up used on the Ms. That should take care of that sooting up issue.

I think the hesitation encountered with quick throttle movements is kind of an inherent problem with the 560s and 706s. You might not ever get it to go away completely.

"The Problem moved around But didn't go away" Would tell Me that Your Dang close to finding it. Had A Rebuilt carb on a 360 dodge that wouln't work right, had that sucker apart 4 times Before I found a Wore out power valve and a sliver of pot metal in a port. and this carb came from a prof. carb shop. Took it apart one time and cleaned it and worked great for a week then the same old chit. thats when I know that it was the carb.

The real problem is likley ethynol. I have a Ferguson 40 with a Continental engine. It got to the point that it would start missing after 2 hours with the recommended plug H12, I believe. I called Champion and they told me the problem was ethynol and to go up one heat range on the plug, H16. I have been running the same plugs for about 5 years.

Does it put out black smoke?I think its running too rich.turn the 'load screw'in a little(lean it up a little).get that engine up to full opewrating temp.Put in a hotter thermostat.Just 'poopin' around the yard,not getting fully warm will cause that.Ckeck your valves,are they too tight?loosen em up a little.My SH will do that,too.

Doesn't give me a lot of confidence in Denny's. Hope you can track it down!

(quoted from post at 08:46:49 02/29/12) Doesn't give me a lot of confidence in Denny's. Hope you can track it down!

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If Denny's in still in bussines he should be at the bottom of anyones call list!

(quoted from post at 08:11:59 02/29/12) Had a gas 560 once that would soot foul plugs every couple months. During a tune-up I switched to UD-16s and the owner said, "They will never work". He was right, I was installing Auto-lites in about a week. The tractor has a problem, it refuses to rev cleanly when the throttle is yanked open. It will back fire through the carb unless the throttle is carefully opened, and will continue to do so until it reaches 190deg., and not one degree before. Completely dismantled the carb, soaked it in carb cleaner, re-assembled with a new kit. No change. Must have had the carb off 20 times changing the float setting, the problem moved around but didn't go away. Checked ignition timing, that was okay. Manifold vacuum 17", I thought that would indicate no mechanical defects, am I accurate on that? Finally called Denny's Carb Shop and he said, "It's plugged up". Wouldn't tell me what was "plugged up", only that it would cost 100.00 or so for him to rebuild my carb. He went on to say,"That engine will never run right unless you run my 55,000 volt coil and electronic ignition, because all spark plugs have resistors in them, mandated by the EPA, to reduce emissions". I thanked him and hung up. Now I'm confused. I have been seeing a lot of plugs lately that have "R" in the part number. But I also see a lot of C-263s with their original coils, breaker points, and a ratty set of plug wires that run just fine. The 560 I was working on, the reason it took so long to foul the plugs, is they worked it pretty hard, all wide-open throttle. It's duties were generally the lagoon pump or the grinder-mixer. It would rev up okay if it was on the verge of overheating. I'm guessing that some of the soot generated during warm-up got burned away in the course of the day. What do you guys think? thanks, Fritz

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I am not familar with 560's and as such will keep this general; I believe you may have two problems: 1) Fouled (from fuel not oil) plugs suggests the mixture is too rich. This would apply to the high speed or power circuit of the carb. 2) Failure to take throttle and back firing suggests the mixture is too lean. This would apply to the idle, low speed circuit or transition circuit (if it has one) of the carb. This condition improves as the engine comes to running temperature since hot engines better atomize the fuel and can run on leaner mixtures. Sometimes the high speed circuit is set rich to compenstate for a faulty low speed circuit. If this is your situation, setting the high speed mixture such that it does not foul plugs may result in a tractor that will not run at low speed.

If the engine will run without miss at full power you can pretty much rule out ignition or spark related problems. One other thing to check is the exhaust manifold should have provisions to heat the inlet manifold to issure the fuel is atomized. If this feature is faulty and not providing heat it could contribute to failure to take throttle and the imporvement noted when the engine is hot.

I'd adjust the engine valves and then check the compression. Maybe check compression before and after adjusting the valves ? If this isn't up to snuff then anything else you do won't matter.

(quoted from post at 08:35:27 02/29/12) Does it put out black smoke?I think its running too rich.turn the 'load screw'in a little(lean it up a little).get that engine up to full opewrating temp.Put in a hotter thermostat.Just 'poopin' around the yard,not getting fully warm will cause that.Ckeck your valves,are they too tight?loosen em up a little.My SH will do that,too.

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A 560 doesn't have a load screw. Instead, it has that goofy, electric solenoid that is either closed (no fuel) or wide open (too much fuel). That solenoid can be replaced with the adjustable load screw, packing nut, and packing as used on a Farmall M.

Rusty is right. If you needed a 55000 volt coil and electronic ignition, it would have been factory equipment. If you choose to use Denny's services, you are going to need a five gallon bucket of asprin. Please do a search and read about some of his satisfied customers on this site.

If that carb really is "plugged up", you can clean it up and rebuild it yourself or there are some people on this forum that will do a quality job rebuilding your carb for you.

Good spark plugs with the heat range needed for how you're going to run the tractor and solid core plug wires are needed. Quality tune-up parts and who uses what supplier/mfr. has started multi-page debates here before. These 6 cyl. gas engines do usually need some heat in them to run at peak performance. The manifold heat riser needs to be functioning properly. The electric carb. solenoid on some carbs on these engines can be fussy, too.

AG

Okay the autolite 3116 seem to work better in these old tractors. I have a similar problem with my jd b. I"ve swapped carbs and mags same problem I blamed mine on no hard use. Raking hay and running buzz saw. Only solution I have found and it doesn"t make any sense what so ever is running lead additive to the fuel. I have 4 two cyl. And a new gen. And this is only one that has to have the lead.

The compression was 120 all down the line, all within 2 LB.of each other. And, as I said before, manifold vacuum 17" Hg

The 560 was spitting and sputtering when opening throttle long before ethanol was even thought of. The 460 was worse and IH finally came with a zenith carb with a vacuum operated accelerator pump and that worked quite well. The biggest problem with the spitting and sputtering is the intake manifold. It needs to be clean inside of the heat stove where the exhaust gas circulates around the intake . So many guys pull the manifold and leave it in one piece when they have the head off for service. I learned a long time ago to take them apart each time and then they come apart quite easily . That valve in the manifold erodes away and or gets stuck. The spring looses it's tension so valve flops open too easy. Also, the position of the slot where spring hooks is sometimes not correct to get enough tension. A quarter turn of tension is minimum, little more is better. Also, the carburetor was changed a few times, one being to a single venturi to reduce icing problems. The 560 never came from the factory with a electric shut off. That was introduced with the 706 on that engine. All had adjustable main jet but the main jet was calibrated for full load and the intentions were to reduce fuel slightly under light loads. That theory did not work very well. About 3 1/2 turns gets you full fuel but they said to give it five turns out at full load to be sure the needle was not restricting the fuel. I used to run many on the dynamometer with the fuel metering tool hooked up to check fuel consumption. It was easy to tell where you started to restrict the fuel. Sometimes, it seems one has to enlarge the main jet with today's fuels. This has to be done very carefully as it is difficult to find new jets for them. I used the last one I had on hand on a carburetor someone had gotten way carried away with.Ignition timing is often incorrectly done. It must be done at full throttle. That is where it is important. Factory settings was 30 degrees before tdc at full throttle. You certainly don't want any more than that and maybe a little less as today's gasolines are slightly lower octane. At any rate though, if the tractor pulls good, fully warmed up, without excessive buildup on spark plugs you might just get manifold in shape and leave carb alone.

Resistors in plugs mandated by the EPA ?? lmao ,,good one . Plugs had resistors in them long before the EPA was even thought of

(quoted from post at 11:35:09 02/29/12) Resistors in plugs mandated by the EPA ?? lmao ,,good one . Plugs had resistors in them long before the EPA was even thought of

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Exactly. Non-resistor spark plugs and non-suppressed ignition wires interfere greatly with television, radio, and other radio type communications. I think it was probably the federal communications system that mandated the resistor type spark plugs.

You can prove this by turning on a radio, tuning it to an a.m. station, and then drive a tractor with non-resistor spark plugs and solid core plug wires to within 50 feet or so of that radio.

Fritz, pete23 is right on. If it stumbles/backfires on acceleration when cold it is running lean. Try choking it different amounts and see if that helps. Work on one at a time. Manifold heat valve then idle circuit then load circuit.

pat, that would be ETH-A-NOL and that is pure bs. We have an 1913 Aultman Taylor and a 1928 Keck Gonermann up to a 2012 Cadet and all brands/makes between all burning ethAnol fuel with NO problems.

I have a WD 45 Allis that had the same problem, sooted up the plugs. Just use it for dinking around with a loader. Put a hot coil on it about 7 or 8 years ago. It has the same plugs in it now. Hot ign will cover up, a little lean or a little rich. Vic

Not so on your remarks in your first paragraph where I quit
reading.

One slight example, how long did it take Detroit to remove the
points from auto ignitions and put in a solid state switch; ala
Capacitor Discharge Ignition? Probably about 10-15 years after
you and I could go to JC Whitney and get one for our cars. The
list just goes on.

I have installed SS ignitions with the HV coils in some old gasser
tractors and every one of them had a significant improvement in
functionality, especially with smooth firing of the plugs and
ignition problems associated with points getting a glaze on them
while sitting up in the barn for 6 months kind of thing. I
installed them in my stuff and did so for some neighbors,
before I saw the light and just ran with diesel.

On the resistor in spark plugs, as mentioned, they had them
back in the 50's because ignitions interfered with radio's. Now
that there are microchip ignition systems, they are necessary to
keep the plug firings from interfering with the generation of the
spark. I just got off the phone, not 30 minutes ago with a Tech
Service guy working for NGK with a question about my OB
engine. He asked me some question, no if and or butts, no
stuttering, told me that my problem was that my spark plug
didn't have a Z in the part number which is a coil (inductor) in
the plug to keep the firing of the plug from confusing the
ignition system. Being the plug fires at 40,000 volts, and the
igintion system has 3v micro chips in it, it stands to reason.
Besides, I made my (comfortable) living for about 45 years in
that arena (high voltage discharge and small signal circuits to
control it) and he was right on.

Mark

Quite a few years ago we had Denny as a speaker at one of our club meetings and after hearing him talk no way would I ever deal with him. I think he was glad to get away from that meeting from the bashing he was getting.

I did try that and it did improve acceleration. The hesitation/backfire is a nuisance, but my real concern is making the plugs last longer. I never messed with the manifold, what Pete says is interesting. It does run it's best when it's about to melt, and that fits right in with his heat riser talk. I'm going to pull that manifold ASAP

(quoted from post at 00:34:45 03/01/12) Not so on your remarks in your first paragraph where I quit
reading.

One slight example, how long did it take Detroit to remove the
points from auto ignitions and put in a solid state switch; ala
Capacitor Discharge Ignition? Probably about 10-15 years after
you and I could go to JC Whitney and get one for our cars. The
list just goes on.

I have installed SS ignitions with the HV coils in some old gasser
tractors and every one of them had a significant improvement in
functionality, especially with smooth firing of the plugs and
ignition problems associated with points getting a glaze on them
while sitting up in the barn for 6 months kind of thing. I
installed them in my stuff and did so for some neighbors,
before I saw the light and just ran with diesel.

On the resistor in spark plugs, as mentioned, they had them
back in the 50's because ignitions interfered with radio's. Now
that there are microchip ignition systems, they are necessary to
keep the plug firings from interfering with the generation of the
spark. I just got off the phone, not 30 minutes ago with a Tech
Service guy working for NGK with a question about my OB
engine. He asked me some question, no if and or butts, no
stuttering, told me that my problem was that my spark plug
didn't have a Z in the part number which is a coil (inductor) in
the plug to keep the firing of the plug from confusing the
ignition system. Being the plug fires at 40,000 volts, and the
igintion system has 3v micro chips in it, it stands to reason.
Besides, I made my (comfortable) living for about 45 years in
that arena (high voltage discharge and small signal circuits to
control it) and he was right on.

Mark

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I like reading entire posts. I always try to learn something.

Glaze and oxidation suck, but they are realities. The commonly available electronic ignition that I've seen for these engines prolongs the inevitible as that crap still builds up on/in the cap.

My 656 I had for over a decade took only proper plugs, an occasional tuneup with good ignition parts and proper timing, a valve job and properly set valves and service of the heat riser to run just fine until I sold it. From -10 to 90+ degrees, it only took warming up the engine for a few minutes for it to run right. Side curtains in winter did help. My 460 utility that I still have runs just fine too. It has a 50+ year old coil. Dad had 3 715's that never needed electronic ignition and high voltage coils, either. They could have used some of JC Whitney's magic fuel magnetizers to conserve gasoline, though. I've got a half-dozen 4-cyl IH gas engine tractors with battery ignition that function quite well with regular coils, correct plugs, and quality ignition parts.

Most C-221 to C-301 6 cylinder IH gas engines run best once some heat is built up in them. The water temp. doesn't have to be boiling either if the manifold heat riser is working properly. If plugs are fouling, one may also have bad/cracked or improper plug wires, oxidation on/in cap, rotor, and or points, worn or broken rings (if oil fouled), bad or improperly adjusted valve(s), an improperly adjusted carburetor or one in need of repair, improper timing, improper heat range of plugs, air leakage from a manifold problem, manifold gasket, or carb mounting gasket, clogged air cleaner, choke stuck or cable improperly set, or the possibility of a dozen or so other problems that I'm sure I forgot to list or a combination of any of the above. Electronic ignition with a high voltage coil sends more juice to fire the engine. It does remedy the problems caused by the parts it replaces. It will also cover up some problems like a slightly out of adjustment carburetor. A screwdriver usually fixes it.

YOU can go ahead and put any coil, plugs, and ignition set up on any tractor YOU want. It's a free country. If it works for you, I'm thrilled for you. If people don't ever bring their tractor to operating temperature, or are unwilling to do thirty seconds of work before starting a tractor every six months, electronic ignition is probably the way for them to go. Electronic ignition and/or a high voltage coil is not a necessity for these engines to perform properly.

AG

Read the label on that lead additive, it says petroleum distillates.Diesel or kerosene.