corn on corn planting question

Kow Farmer · Feb 25, 2012

Good day everyone,
I am looking for comments/advice from all you well seasoned row crop farmers. I have a very small farm where I raise a small herd of beef steers year a round. I plowed up my hay field that was 9 years old for corn to feed my cattle. Since corn prices have about doubled in the last 2 years, I needed to grow my own feed. Since I have plenty of hay leftover, I was wondering if I should plant corn back this spring since it was corn last year? It was a very dry year here in Southern Minnesota, much like most of you probably also encountered last year too. I guess my concern is about a couple of things. First is soil fertility for a good crop and disease pressure for corn on corn 2 years in a row. I haven't had any soil testing done either. I talked to another farmer, and his advice was go to corn on corn because I haven't used up much nutrients in the soil because of the hay raised so many years on this field. I do not use commercial fertilizer since I have cattle manure I haul on the field. With the hot dry weather last year I averaged 137 bpa with 59.5 lb test weight and 13.8% moisture. I realize that doesn't mean I will have the same results for 2012. I need the corn for feed for the cattle. I also work full time also. The farm is my passion but unfortunately not my main income. My soil is very heavy black ground and is well drained. Thank you all in advance for all the suggestions.
Kow Farmer

rrlund · Feb 25, 2012

I always go two years of corn then back to alfalfa in rotation. I use manure,but I go with about 300 pounds of triple 19 on average in the first and second year both,banded in the row. I'll agree that you might have some residual nitrogen from the alfalfa,but remember,if the hay was getting grassy before you plowed it up,you probably used most if not all of it. I doubt you'll have any insect pressure being just second year after hay if you're talking root worm or corn borer.

bradk · Feb 25, 2012

One of the big issues with c on c is residue from the prev crop.Row cleaners(trash whips) are the norm for most of us.Did you chop stalks and plow last fall?

There are other concerns also,but a good seed corn variety with resistance to rootworm,corn borer and Goss" wilt will lessen the disease and/or insect pressures associated w/c on c.

Plant as usual with broadcast of urea and starter fert in the planter and you"ll have a good crop again.(I"m in SE MN)

fixerupper · Feb 25, 2012

The decaying alfalfa took out moisture and then it was a dry year on top of it. One of the fears I always had when I planted corn into old alfalfa stubble was a dry year.

Corn on corn will need more moisture and you don't have any or very little subsoil moisture so it kind of a guess whether corn will do well or not. On dry years corn on corn doesn't do well but we don't know what the future rainfall will be. I'm going to have some corn-on-corn this year but I'm questioning my wisdom cause I'm just as dry as you are.

Insect wise, you might be bothered by rootworms and they can be controlled by insecticide in-furrow during planting or you can plant a BT corn, but with BT you'll still need to plant some non-BT for a refuge. Looks to me like non-BT with insecticide is the way for you to go with a small acreage. You could chance it without insecticide but this mild winter was kind to the bugs so the rootworms might come out with a vengeance this summer.

I guess I might not have answered your questions completely with my ramabling but those are some things to think about. There's no perfect answer. We just have to go by averages. Jim

Kow Farmer · Feb 25, 2012

Hi Brad,
I don't have a stalk chopper. I disked the cornstalks twice and then moldboard plowed the corn ground. I forgot to mention this in my original posting.
Kow Farmer

gitrib · Feb 25, 2012

Get the soil tested so you know what you are working with. That is most important.
gitrib

gregger · Feb 25, 2012

get to gether with a ag suplyer , you need some NPK that last yr's crop used up even if its a small amount they can spray it on , even spray for weeds and bugs -- your going to the expence of putting a crop in do it right the frist time cus most times there's no second chance

gene bender · Feb 25, 2012

Have you tested the soil that is first not hearsay that you have what is needed for corn following corn

Kow Farmer · Feb 25, 2012

No sir I have not.
Kow Farmer

Nebraska Cowman · Feb 25, 2012

I never buy much fertilizer and it has got me this far. With lots of manure I think you will get away with it. Soil tests are worthless if you are not going to follow them anyway. Save your money.

Kow Farmer · Feb 25, 2012

Great comments from everyone so far. Some more things I was thinking about this afternoon as I was doing my cattle chores. Last year's corn was triple stack Dekalb, which I really liked. Unfortunately when the rain shut off at the end of July, there also went the potential for a great yield. The corn had great stalk strength and standability. When my neighbor combined for me last Fall, I rode with him to see how I did. He was impressed with the weed control I had. He said it was one of the cleanest fields he ever combined. I do have last year's crop stored in grain bank at my local elevator for cattle feed. Just hope I can make it until Fall, depends how many steers I have on hand at all times.
I ask all this because last year my wonderful neighbor died in March. So his family had a machinery auction and rented out the land (too much $$ for me). Anyway, as they were lining up machinery for the auction, they found some Latham RR soybeans in the bags. So I asked if I could buy it, he said no, he gave it to me instead. So, since I have the bean seed, would I be a fool not to rotate my crop this year? I am hoping soybean prices will stablize or go up at least so I can sell the beans and buy back corn for cattle feed. Just some more food for thought. Thank you everyone again.
Kow Farmer

GordoSD · Feb 25, 2012

If you have enough bean seed to do the job, by all means do that. You still need to get the soil tests, and prep for beans. Then sell the beans and buy corn.

OliverGuy · Feb 25, 2012

If you need the corn, plant it. Get soil tests done to see where you stand, it's important if you want to grow the best crop. Your residue is fine if you moldboarded. Recently I do 2 yrs corn, 1 yr beans. I chisel or disc/rip the corn after the first year and I can run the field cultivator through it the next spring for planting. This is on 180-210 bu corn. My 2 cents.

jbp · Feb 25, 2012

Don't know any thing about your soil types, but hay, especially alfalfa hay is hard on potash test levels. Believe I would get a soil test before doing anything. It costs too much to grow corn without doing everthing possible to get the best yields.
I had hogs and used the liquid manure on corn fields for many years. Great stuff, but soil tests showed I still needed to apply additional potash and nitrogen but no phosphate for top yields. I planted corn on corn as I needed it for hog feed. University of Ky seems to think there is about a 10% penalty for doing that though. I believe they are right.

Joe

donjr · Feb 25, 2012

I've been corn on corn for ten+ years in many fields. They get tested, and limed and manure and NPK to test for 150+ bu corn. With no rain for 14 weeks after planting last year they yielded 104 bu, but the year before was 189 bu. I use no-til, chop stalks in the fall and try to plant into a cover of rye or wheat, which is burned down before planting. If you have bean seed available, by all means, plant it. I'm not sure about your area exactly, but get them in as soon after normal corn planting as you can. Full season beans yield nearly double what double-crop beans do, combine them and use them to buy corn for winter feed if you need it. If you have any ground left, put it into corn and harvest it for your own use. Make the ground work for you! Whatever you do, soil test. It will tell you what you really need for a good crop. If you have manure, test it. Then adjust your nutrients to what the crop needs to meet your yield goals. And set your goals realistically high, and plant to achieve them.

JMS/.MN · Feb 25, 2012

Corn on corn needs insecticide the second year of corn, and more N. Yield drag is com with C on C. 30-40 bpa is not unusual. With 9 year old hay, even alfalfa, I wouldn"t figure any N credit from it. Any crop you take off a field removes NPK, in varying amounts. Soil test...you can also test the manure, or at least allow for some nutrients from it.

randy hall · Feb 25, 2012

every 100 bales of hay per acre removes 100# of potash. your manure is a very good source of phosphorus but not as good for potash. if you can get your manure plowed under within a day of spreading it you will get a lot of nitrogen from it also.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 25, 2012

If you were planting corn to sell it might be better to rotate to beans, but since you are using it to feed your cattle it makes sense to me to go with corn. As long as you have adequate fertilty, weed control, and moisture you should be okay. The biggest factor beyond your control is the weather but that is what all farmers deal with.

dieseldoc · Feb 25, 2012

I dont agree with your yield drag figure. I have a few fields that have been corn on corn for 8 years and show no yield drag at all.

mb58 · Feb 25, 2012

Me too.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 25, 2012

14 weeks with no rain and you raise 104 bu/acre? really. you must irrigate

donjr · Feb 25, 2012

Nup. No-til into cover crop. Couple of dust busters in late July, but too little too late to do any good. Triple stack and good fertility, 31,000 population. Year before averaged 189 bu. on shelled corn, close to 20T. silage. Last year silage was not quite 10 tons. There was a shower in early May that got it up and going, but then the rain cut off until the first of September. We got .4" in three showers in early August, .1" one day, .2" about a week later, and .1" a couple of days later. Roots had to chase the moisture; we planted for 175-200 bushel yields. Barely paid for crop.

paul · Feb 26, 2012

Well as you drive by my fields you might not want to follow my advise, not sure I do thsat great a job.

You need more N. You gotta pick up 40 lbs extra N to get the same yield. The rotting cornstalks will use up about that much N, the corn will miss it.

I assume you got the cornstalks worked under last fall. Corn into cornstalks does not work well in out climate/soils. Corn into worked ground works pretty good. I play with that little 3 acre field by my driveway, it hasn't been plowed in 6-7 years, corn on corn. I just want to see how it works out. Most years actually pretty good, but every few years you can really tell, coulda used drier warmer soils.... Works pretty good in plowed ground tho.

I've not had much trouble with bugs. Surprising, I typically don't bother with much stacked traits.

Mostly, find a way to add another 40 lbs of N and it should be good for you.

--->Paul

paul · Feb 26, 2012

There is often a dip the 2nd year. Careful fertility management can keep on top of that, but typically in our area the cornstalks use up some N to break down, and that N doesn't get returned until the following year. With the N tyed up, the corn suffers.

One can work around it, but there is a N shortage the 2nd year.

--->Paul

JMS/.MN · Feb 26, 2012

Besides research evidence, I offer my own. I had continuous corn for 8 years, needing to deliver to a now defunct (they funct up) ethanol plant. I rent out over 300 acres to a neighbor, and farm a small portion myself. We are side by side on four fields. If I get 150 bpa corn, he"ll get up to 190. He"s compared his apps to mine, especially nitrogen, and I"ve been using more than he does, both according to 3 yr soil tests, with same yield goals. "09 I got 150 corn, "10 went to beans with no fertilizer......all my fields went 60 or slightly under. "11, wet Spring, June planting, no rain since July, beans did 42....no fertilizer. This year I"ll use some fertilizer on the beans, per soil test done last Fall. Will go back to corn next year. Yes, I believe in yield drag, even with higher N rates. There is a reason for crop rotation.

JMS/.MN · Feb 26, 2012

paul, you mentioned a 3 acre field, not plowed for years.....any kind of tillage? Chisel, disk, or? And yeah, the N certainly gets tied up in rotting stalks.

JMS/.MN · Feb 26, 2012

You mentioned using liquid hog manure and still added N....did you surface apply or knife it in? I used liquid manure from the dairy for about 15 years, knifed it in, instant cover, no gassing off of N, and only seldom added even any starter on corn- except in a cold Spring. I"ve seen it where guys surface apply enough liquid manure, hoping to till it in before gassing off the N, and the fields are too wet to pull the tillage machine. Even with knifing in, if the field smells like manure....N is being lost. Always had "discussions" with my custom pumper about that.

jbp · Feb 26, 2012

JMS, I did not incorporate the hog manure as my soils are highly erodable and corn was planted no till. Very little land is moldboard or chisel plowed in my area, mostly just gardens and small plots. Joe

paul · Feb 26, 2012

This little field was part of dad's hog yard, soil test was off the chart, they said numbers like that get you in trouble if you are fertilizing.... It's kinda low ground too had a wet acre in the middle, one end is peat ground, one side is spoils from the county ditch. A very 'busy' 3 acres.

Most of the time I chop the stalks in fall, disk or field cultivate in spring, and plant it. Two years it was too cold to get it growing poor stand, last year with the rains I didn't get N on in time - I had planted it _Very_ early sometime in April to get the neighbors going, as cold as last spring was I didn't expect it to grow but it did come up pretty good, then so much rain couldn't get the N on.

Couple years ago we ran tile through it, so neighbor harvested it for corn silage.

Other than that year, no fall tillage, fairly light spring tillage. Been fun to see what works and what doesn't. Mostly it seems I proved to myself minimum tillage corn on corn in my wet southern MN ground can work most years, but it would bite you badly about 1 in 5 years if you were trying to do the whole farm that way. Way too risky. The N penalty is worst the first year.

I also don't do any insect or traited seed on that 3 acres, and only saw insect issues one year where it mattered. But then, the neighbors are likely full traits I'm probably the neighborhood refuge, so the insect pressures are brought down from what they do.

Beans don't like my clay, peat, wet soil, so been experimenting with corn on corn for the past 15 years, probably do 1/3 beans and 2/3 corn that is pretty normal around here in the shadow of the ethanol coop, corn pays, beans are a rotation.....

--->Paul

Kow Farmer · Feb 26, 2012

Hi Paul,
You do a good job on your farm. I know everyone has there own way of tillage practices. You have to know what works best on your own farm. I did get my cornstalks plowed under in October and they covered very well. I have always admired your way of farming. Otherwise you probably wouldn't be in the business if you weren't successful. Thanks for the comments. Maybe I have have to stop by someday so you know who I am. Take care.
Kow Farmer

paul · Feb 26, 2012

137 bu/ac was very good last year, you are doing something right. Bet the manure helped out a lot, slow-release of nutrients. With it so wet in the spring, lot of N floated away, my drier ground yielded pretty good even as dry as fall got, but the wetter ground turned out to be the poor ground, I think the N washed away; and/or the roots never developed from the soaking and so didn't get down to draw in moisture late in the summer.

I'd not be afraid of corn on corn, but would be good to find a way to do an extra 40 lbs of N somehow over whtever you did last year.

See if this next storm hits us or misses us again.

--->Paul

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