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New furnace/boiler shopping... decisions........

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Guy was here to fix our old one and offered a new system installed for 8k bucks and 2 year guarantee across the board... Done sone googling and found the same system he offered for a little over half the price w/ same guarantee so he was (in my little mind) charging 4k for installation......

FF and today, we were in a BB store where they had the same style heater that the other guy offered in another brand but still made in germany with a 2 year guarantee for 3k... Then an offer to deliver/swap it out (install it) for 500-700 bucks and then a 5 year guarantee.....
That's not something you'd usually buy from a bigbox store but am thinking it'd be a shame to pass up such a deal.....

what could go wrong???
 
There is a lot of difference, in the quality of the installation. Get someone you trust, to get the boiler, and install it. Low bid installers often end up biting you in the a$$. JMHO
 
Dave you are comparing apples to oranges here. You are asking questions from us guys in the States while you are in the FRG. Here box stores have been selling furnaces for many years with and without installation. My dad bought one from sears in 72.

Here places like Home Depot sells them and has a list of local contractors who install them and are paid by HD. But warrenty work is another matter. You have no idea where it's coming from. An example was my son and DIL who bought an appliance from HD. When they had a under warrenty problem HD refered them the manufacturer. They sent a guy out from Mnkato MN, 240 miles away. He had to determine the problem, leave, get approval and the part and return. The whole thing took about 15 days. Before you buy at the BB store check German law on the warrenty stuff.

Rick
 
Dave I have followed you post and as an old man it seem you are a natural born cheap scap. Every deal you post is never a clean cut deal there is always series of options. I am 82 yrs old and I make up my mind what I need if it fits yhe budget "DO IT" You can always find something that might be better or worst. Indecision can be your worsy enemy.
gitrib
 
(quoted from post at 12:13:29 01/11/12) Dave I have followed you post and as an old man it seem you are a natural born cheap scap. Every deal you post is never a clean cut deal there is always series of options. I am 82 yrs old and I make up my mind what I need if it fits yhe budget "DO IT" You can always find something that might be better or worst. Indecision can be your worsy enemy.
gitrib
Click to expand...

Call it what you want.... I work for my money just like the next guy.... I wanna still have some around when I'm 82 if I make it that far.... If that makes me cheap, so be it....
Thanks for your input tho.....
 
(quoted from post at 12:02:19 01/11/12) Dave you are comparing apples to oranges here. You are asking questions from us guys in the States while you are in the FRG. Here box stores have been selling furnaces for many years with and without installation. My dad bought one from sears in 72.

Here places like Home Depot sells them and has a list of local contractors who install them and are paid by HD. But warrenty work is another matter. You have no idea where it's coming from. An example was my son and DIL who bought an appliance from HD. When they had a under warrenty problem HD refered them the manufacturer. They sent a guy out from Mnkato MN, 240 miles away. He had to determine the problem, leave, get approval and the part and return. The whole thing took about 15 days. Before you buy at the BB store check German law on the warrenty stuff.

Rick
Click to expand...

That's what I was gettin at more than "should I do it?"..... German laws are pretty strict on warrenty but you could be close on the where it comes from and the wait.... I'll check a little deeper on that piece...
 
Dave another thing to look at.....when you called the guy about a problem he was right there. How quick do you think he's going to be when you have a future problem and he knows you went to the BB? Heck he may decide that he's need to take a vacation before he can come and look at it.

Kinda like me 2 years ago. I took my chainsaw, purchased at the dealer in for a tuneup. Guy in front of me is getting his tuned up too. The service guy, brad tells the guy "oh about a week ot 10 days" and I'm thinking no big deal, I don't need it right away. Brad tells me you can pick it up tomorrow afternoon. I ask him whats up with the other guys saw......Brad tells me "he didn't buy it here, it's from Home Depot".

I got my furnace locally, installed it myself, paid the 50 bucks to do the inspection and know that if I call he'll come.

You have to remember that these small guys don't get the discounts and other perks that the box stores get.

Rick
 
Russ it isn't. I had exsisting duct work so all I had to do was tie into it, hook up the electric and gas and was good to go.

Rick
 

Wow you guys really stir me up when you talk about how easy installation is, I use to have a dog in this fight and I can tell you a well-designed system is not a snap to install.

I bet not a one of you that find it so easy know anything about properly sizing a unit or the duct system, also those of you that installed a forced air unit did you use a manometer and set the gas pressure to specs, did you read the TSP of the unit, did you take a heat rise at the bonnet and set the fan speed correctly?

When I was in the HVAC business I ran into so many self-installed butchered units the owner was so proud of.

Now if Dave is running a boiler if the wet return is at a different height than the old boiler do you know how to re-plumb the Hartford loop or do you just grab some fittings and “Giter Done”?

Yeah I have seen some do it you self-installations the exhibited excellent craftsmanship but I never seen one where the HO had the equipment to fine tune the installation unless you have enough knowledge of installation to make a safe installation it is not always the thing to do.

The agony of a bad installation will far outlast the thrill of a good deal.

Rant is done now.
 
(quoted from post at 14:02:11 01/11/12)
Wow you guys really stir me up when you talk about how easy installation is, I use to have a dog in this fight and I can tell you a well-designed system is not a snap to install.

I bet not a one of you that find it so easy know anything about properly sizing a unit or the duct system, also those of you that installed a forced air unit did you use a manometer and set the gas pressure to specs, did you read the TSP of the unit, did you take a heat rise at the bonnet and set the fan speed correctly?

When I was in the HVAC business I ran into so many self-installed butchered units the owner was so proud of.

Now if Dave is running a boiler if the wet return is at a different height than the old boiler do you know how to re-plumb the Hartford loop or do you just grab some fittings and “Giter Done”?

Yeah I have seen some do it you self-installations the exhibited excellent craftsmanship but I never seen one where the HO had the equipment to fine tune the installation unless you have enough knowledge of installation to make a safe installation it is not always the thing to do.

The agony of a bad installation will far outlast the thrill of a good deal.

Rant is done now.
Click to expand...

LOL that's why I paid the guy to come out and test/dial in the unit once it was in. And I did do the research to get the proper sized unit for my home. and added an extra duct from the plenum to get proper flow. I also followed his advice about heating the basement too.

He told me "I'm impressed, most people really screw it up bad."

Rick
 
EX 450 Owner, makes some valid points regarding a "professional" vs. HO installation. As a HO me thinks that the professional often errors in over sizing the heating unit. This costs the home owner but gives the pro more margin for error on a call back.
 
(quoted from post at 14:02:11 01/11/12)
Wow you guys really stir me up when you talk about how easy installation is, I use to have a dog in this fight and I can tell you a well-designed system is not a snap to install.

I bet not a one of you that find it so easy know anything about properly sizing a unit or the duct system, also those of you that installed a forced air unit did you use a manometer and set the gas pressure to specs, did you read the TSP of the unit, did you take a heat rise at the bonnet and set the fan speed correctly?

When I was in the HVAC business I ran into so many self-installed butchered units the owner was so proud of.

Now if Dave is running a boiler if the wet return is at a different height than the old boiler do you know how to re-plumb the Hartford loop or do you just grab some fittings and “Giter Done”?

Yeah I have seen some do it you self-installations the exhibited excellent craftsmanship but I never seen one where the HO had the equipment to fine tune the installation unless you have enough knowledge of installation to make a safe installation it is not always the thing to do.

The agony of a bad installation will far outlast the thrill of a good deal.

Rant is done now.
Click to expand...

We bought the house with no central heating except a wood stove in the center of the living room and a coal stove in the center of the dining room. Hot water was on the spot heaters fed by a single loop of cold water. I plumbed new water and heater radiators then used a 30 gallon electric water heater for hot water and an old 15 or so gallon one to run the heaters with just a circulation pump on a timer.... Got the job done and only used the heater tank when we were at work and not there to keep the stoves going. Picked up a used oil boiler and 30 something gallon water tank off ebay and done some headscratching & installed it.....

Could prolly swap one out but really don't want to try it on a new setup. If you screw up on 200 bucks it's a little easier to swallow.....

The more I look tho the more frustrated I get... Wife wants a pellet boiler setup but all I found til today were twice what the oil ones run... Was on a site today that had name brand systems really affordable and pellet systems running the same prices.......
 
(quoted from post at 23:42:53 01/11/12) EX 450 Owner, makes some valid points regarding a "professional" vs. HO installation. As a HO me thinks that the professional often errors in over sizing the heating unit. This costs the home owner but gives the pro more margin for error on a call back.
Click to expand...

I don’t know what type of “professionals” you deal with but oversizing to any extent is dumb it creates all kinds of problems trying to tune or balance the system. Why would I create my customer and myself a problem that sometimes is not solvable?

When I estimated a job I did a manual J to home in on the heat loss and heat gain of the envelope. This required measuring the size of the house, the size of the window the direction they faced and the e value of the units, the value of the insulation in the walls and ceiling, overhang, amount of exposed basement wall or slab to name a few factors.

Manual J is a computer program that if given all the necessary inputs accurately will spell out the size of the heating and cooling units. In the new high efficiency units offering a rebate this is a prerequisite to obtain the rebate.

It is my experience it is the HO that usually oversize’s the unit and then call the professional the first really cold night and the High Limit is tripping because the duct work is undersized for the BTU output of the furnace sorry but I have a lot of years in that trade and I could not disagree with you more.

Let me also admit that there are all kinds of professionals some are good and honest, some are hacks and screw up because they don’t know any better, and then occasionally you run into a real crook often these are the guys that offer a $19.99 tune up, now I don’t care where you are no one can set a service truck in your driveway for $19.99 they will have to find some “big problems” and tack on some big charges to make any money on the call.
 
Dave
If you are going to have someone else install it don’t go by the lowest price alone. I don’t know the setup in Germany but here in the states I would look for someone that is licensed and insured. Then I would ask for references and go look at some of the installations. Talk to previous customers how long have they had their unit? How fast does the guy respond to a service call, does he come with some parts for the boiler or does he have to always go get parts?
 
Dave, I have checked into various heating units for sale in the states... Many of those warranties are null and void unless the installed unit is inspected by licensed heating personnel.. If you just add the boiler to your system, would it pass an inspection? Be sure to read the installation and warranty books cover to cover before making a final choice..

You are common to many other forum members in trying to watch out for the pocketbook and your best interests.. The other day, I paid $124 for a small bag of fittings.. The small stuff adds up quickly.. Make sure to do your math on the entire project, including rewireing... Did the Contractor do up a worksheet and a written estimate? Dave, Keep us posted, BDT
 
(quoted from post at 16:57:09 01/11/12) Dave, I have checked into various heating units for sale in the states... Many of those warranties are null and void unless the installed unit is inspected by licensed heating personnel.. If you just add the boiler to your system, would it pass an inspection? Be sure to read the installation and warranty books cover to cover before making a final choice..

You are common to many other forum members in trying to watch out for the pocketbook and your best interests.. The other day, I paid $124 for a small bag of fittings.. The small stuff adds up quickly.. Make sure to do your math on the entire project, including rewireing... Did the Contractor do up a worksheet and a written estimate? Dave, Keep us posted, BDT
Click to expand...

It's insurance also with us..... Will have to have a certified joe install and sign off, just a matter of finding one... The stores offer the "service" by providing a list in your area to the person that buys the unit and thier blessing to work on your stuff to the contractor on thier list.....
I understand that a guy's gotta eat, but things should be a little in proportion.... No problem with him eating a week from the day's work he does for me, but I have heartburn with him eating out for a month and taking a taxi to the restuarant on it :roll:

We'll see.....
 

Dave
From your description it sounds like you are using a hot water single zone system? Which is your new system going to be Hot water or steam?
What do you use for radiators are they forced air or radiant? Cast Iron or Copper? The radiators are rated for so many BTU per foot of radiator based on the temperature differentials, are you going to size the system to the radiator system or will you size for the envelope heat loss and add radiators if more surface area is needed?.
 
(quoted from post at 17:24:37 01/11/12)
Dave
From your description it sounds like you are using a hot water single zone system? Which is your new system going to be Hot water or steam?
What do you use for radiators are they forced air or radiant? Cast Iron or Copper? The radiators are rated for so many BTU per foot of radiator based on the temperature differentials, are you going to size the system to the radiator system or will you size for the envelope heat loss and add radiators if more surface area is needed?.
Click to expand...

I'm givin you that look.... But it's a hot water system with steel radiators.... Don't know if it's what you're asking, but we have two settings at the brain along with timers, etc. Set the sink/shower water temperature and set the water temp that'll flow thru the radiators... I looked at some pics in books before plumbing the radiators. O way ran a supply line to the input of the 1st rad in line, then the output on that rad fed the input of the next, and so on..... Couldn't make myself understand the sense in that so just ran a common supply line and attached to all the inputs and a common return attached accordingly.... Added floor heating in the living room by running the radiator return thru the floor coils..... Didn't work so hot and by the time I realized it, all was closed and walls tiled. Instead of tearing everything up, I just removed the radiator and bridged the input/return with a length of PEX and left the same thermostat that the radiator used. Works pretty slick and don't have that radiator hanging on the wall.....
 

Dave:

When the radiators are hooked in series where the water goes through one radiator and then on to the next and then to the next and so one until after the final radiator it returns to the heater so the water is re-heated. This is called the single pipe system and since the water is flowing at the same flow rate in all radiators the first radiator will deliver the most BTU’s and the last radiator will deliver the least amount of BTU’s. The water temperature will be colder when it gets to the last radiator.

When the radiators are hooked in parallel or in the two pipe system (that sounds like what you did, except when you put your floor loop in the return) the water going into each radiator is of approximately the same temperature (unless one run has a lot longer piping run) and by using a balancing valve on each radiator you can adjust the flow in each radiator separately and better control the BTU output, if the radiators are all of the same length and size you should be able to adjust the flow rates with the balancing valves and have a balanced BTU output on each radiator if that is your desire.

The heat rate transfer will be controlled by the radiators characteristics fin area and the temperature difference between the fins and the room temperature (assuming no fan here) so a fin temperature of 200°F will transfer more heat into a 70°F room than a 180°F fin temperature will. Also the more BTU dissipated by the radiator the more temperature drop you will find between the inlet and outlet of the radiator.
 

That's why I done away with the radiator in the living room and ran straight thru the floor coils... The valves (?) you are talking about at the radiators I believe are what the thermostats on each one does .... Honestly, I did the majority by looking an pictures because the text was confusing me....... Been doing good for 10 years tho, so musta been good pics :roll:
 

Dave:

There are different balancing valve setups I am guessing you probably have thermostatic flow controls in the outlet of the radiator if so you set those valves to control the outlet temperature of the radiator as you slow down the flow the temperature drop across the radiator increases extracting more BTU from the radiator, when the outlet temperature reaches the set temperature the valve begins to modulate and control the flow rate of that radiator.

Does your thermostat control the pump?
 
(quoted from post at 19:28:56 01/11/12)
Dave:

There are different balancing valve setups I am guessing you probably have thermostatic flow controls in the outlet of the radiator if so you set those valves to control the outlet temperature of the radiator as you slow down the flow the temperature drop across the radiator increases extracting more BTU from the radiator, when the outlet temperature reaches the set temperature the valve begins to modulate and control the flow rate of that radiator.

Does your thermostat control the pump?
Click to expand...

I can't remember seeing hot water heating in the States except the old radiators in school as a kid.......

These just have a manual thermostat in the inlet knob. You set in from frost to 5 depending on how warm you want it. Frost setting will just keep things from freezing and 2 will maintain about 65 degrees in the room, etc..... When I get a chance, I'll take a couple pics and repost..... I'm sure we are talking about the same thing, just sayin it different.....
 
(quoted from post at 16:39:19 01/11/12)
(quoted from post at 23:42:53 01/11/12) EX 450 Owner, makes some valid points regarding a "professional" vs. HO installation. As a HO me thinks that the professional often errors in over sizing the heating unit. This costs the home owner but gives the pro more margin for error on a call back.
Click to expand...

I don’t know what type of “professionals” you deal with but oversizing to any extent is dumb it creates all kinds of problems trying to tune or balance the system. Why would I create my customer and myself a problem that sometimes is not solvable?

When I estimated a job I did a manual J to home in on the heat loss and heat gain of the envelope. This required measuring the size of the house, the size of the window the direction they faced and the e value of the units, the value of the insulation in the walls and ceiling, overhang, amount of exposed basement wall or slab to name a few factors.

Manual J is a computer program that if given all the necessary inputs accurately will spell out the size of the heating and cooling units. In the new high efficiency units offering a rebate this is a prerequisite to obtain the rebate.

It is my experience it is the HO that usually oversize’s the unit and then call the professional the first really cold night and the High Limit is tripping because the duct work is undersized for the BTU output of the furnace sorry but I have a lot of years in that trade and I could not disagree with you more.

Let me also admit that there are all kinds of professionals some are good and honest, some are hacks and screw up because they don’t know any better, and then occasionally you run into a real crook often these are the guys that offer a $19.99 tune up, now I don’t care where you are no one can set a service truck in your driveway for $19.99 they will have to find some “big problems” and tack on some big charges to make any money on the call.
Click to expand...


EX450 you did hit the nail in the head there. Many homeowners really think bigger is better. After doing much research both in person and on line I kinda felt comfortable with furnace shopping. I narrowed my selection by the couple of brands that had good customer reviews and are readily available parts and service, knew the SQ Ft of the house, had the info on the insulation and windows (cause we had just put in all new insulation and windows). I had them make a new plenum, hauled it home and installed it. Like I said once in they came out and made adjustments and suggested adding one more duct which I did. I just about cut my LP consumption in half.

Rick
 

Yeah Rick in my little corner of the world when a 75K BTU output would do they will put in a 100K BTU output because there is so little difference in price. And then they will put in a highly restrictive filter so now because the ductwork is too small and the filter is too restrictive there is no way the blower can move sufficient air and the furnace starts out it new life by overheating the heat exchanger, in addition if the gas pressure does not get set correctly and the gas valve does not get converted properly if it is an LP application so the problem compounds.

For a few years I did static pressure duct studies on every system that I worked on and found, that in my area at least, about 70% of the systems had undersized ducting especially on the return air side. That included even new systems.

Now I have to be perfectly honest and admit not all of these were DIY installs but many were done by professionals and in some cases the furnace was sized correctly but the duct work was not.
 
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