Bury the Wires?

showcrop · Dec 1, 2011

Following four widespread significant duration power outage events here in the northeast in about three years, there are many calling for all wires to be buried so that tree branches don't bring them down. For some time virtually all new subdivisions have been required to bury them. It appears to me that the utilities have been doing a good job of cutting trees and branches back to reduce their exposure, but of course they are limited in how far back they can cut, and many roads are tree lined here. I can't imagine the cost to bury the wires let alone getting the easements for the ground space needed. I don't think that most people would go along with it once they find out what it will cost them. Many parts of the country are wide open with probably one tree in a hundred miles that could fall on a wire. Now the southwest has just had an event that brought down a lot of wires. And of course in the central areas and southeast there are now tornadoes taking down wires. What do you think is the solution now that 100 year weather events are an annual occurence?

pat sublett · Dec 1, 2011

Buried wires are significantly less efficient in current carrying capacity than wires in open air.
About 80% efficient if my memory serves me correctly.

LJD · Dec 1, 2011

I don't think these "100 year" events mean anything when it comes to future planning. The world now is quite different than it was 100 years ago - so all bets are off. Climate is different and so is the state of development, watershed areas, ground flow, etc. That's why so many things get built and then get washed away.
Our "new" Interstate got washed away a few years ago and two tractor trailers got washed away. That due to relying on a 100 year flood plain plan. Best rule of thumb is this - if you are in a 100 year area -the event can happen in 99 years or it can happen right now.

I used to be a lineman long ago. Back 40-50 years ago the same talk was going on about buried cables. I think it would be huge disaster. How do you plan ahead enough so you don't have to keep digging them up for upgrades and repairs? It would be a worse mess then we have now. Then you've got the added issue of less carrying capacity for buried cables as compared to those in open air.

jackinok · Dec 1, 2011

underground lines have their problems also. Not to mention all the hv transformers and things setting around. Here in Oklahoma they've about concluded its more cost efective to leave it above ground most places, and just as much or more reliable. where your at i imagine you would run into a lot of trouble with ground heaving and things.Or maybe even frozen ground slowing repairs.

Throop · Dec 1, 2011

Can you imagine the cost involved just in system protection, for example fusing? In the overhead world it is done right at the poles, in open air, in the underground world its done in pad mounted switchgear. The cost of the switchgear alone would be phenomenal.
Rich

Bob Bancroft · Dec 1, 2011

My service comes into the grain bins,(which are the biggest load and close to the road on purpose anyhow). Then goes underground to the barns and house. The barn run I put in first cheap. The house run is overdone because of distance. It just wasn't going to work, nor be safe to put any of it overhead. But I still worry about the underground wires occasionally. Did I really get that conduit totally glued really good?????? An underground (plastic) propane line we buried next to one of the electric lines leaked almost from day one. When it was redone, we ran it through black plastic water line. And there are drainage lines around here too. There are just too many complications.
Like the others said "you think you've got troubles now with over head lines?"

rustyfarmall · Dec 1, 2011

I buried the electricity from the meter to my house and then from the meter to my shop. Did it all 12 to 13 years ago. Best thing I ever did. If we lose power because of a storm, it won't be MY wires that came down.

rrlund · Dec 1, 2011

If even that. They don't cool properly when they're buried. At least that's what I've always been told.

jackinok · Dec 1, 2011

it does have a advantage in wind and things,thats for sure. But its still not immune to lightning strikes,moisture degredation etc. And its always more expensive to repair of course. my service to the house is underground ,but all the rest is still on poles.

Geo-TH,In · Dec 1, 2011

My neighbor's trees have brought my power lines down on 3 occasions. Her trees are damaged and could fall on my house. Do you know what I can do about it? NOTHING and as long as there is a leaf growing on her trees, it's my problem when her trees fall on my house. The power surge caused by her trees falling on my power lines have cost me 100's. The last time it was a week before my power was returned. I paid $600 for the power company to install a strike protector on my meter because of my neighbor's trees.

You want to fix the problem, make the people pay for their trees damaging power lines and neighbor's personal property. Don't expect power companies to fix the problem. Power companies just pass the cost on the the consumer.
George

bjb in TX from Ne · Dec 1, 2011

A 100 year event doesn't mean that it only happens once every century. It is a statistical measurement on base on exceedance. Basically there is a 1% chance EVERY year of having a storm that meets OR exceeds the "100-year" event. Since this is based on historical data, as more data is collected this can change. The "100-year" flood plains in Houston changed b/c of new information on storms based on Katrina and Ike (and past storms).

The main question then to ask is what is your tolerance of risk. There are other risks invloved with downed power lines other than the lose of power; they can be a severe health hazard to the uniformed public.

Howard H. · Dec 1, 2011

Where we buried miles of wire to drive the irrigation center pivots, underground wire works great!

UNTIL - you get water in the line and it shorts out the slightest bruise on the insulation somewhere. Or gophers or rats get to chewing on it... Or lightning hits a disconnect and burns a line...

And once you get a problem on a long run - it can be HECK to locate where it is...

And with what Bob B. said about gluing the conduit good - we've had family debates about whether to even put it in conduit or not. If you do - and then get water in the conduit - it will never leave. At least with direct burial, or loose fitting (or slotted) pipe, water that DOES get in can drain back away...

There is sure no perfect solution...

Howard

JMOR · Dec 1, 2011

In the city, here, virtually all new construction is with buried power transmission. Have 14,400 v underground to xfmer & 120/240 v from xfmer to house. I guess they have refined it to the point that it is competitive cost wise with overhead.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 1, 2011

Most stuff is underground here... At least in built up areas, sure there are exceptions but underground service is the norm.... In 21 years, I can't remember a power outage of more than a couple minutes........

Dblair · Dec 1, 2011

we , in the U.S. have a 3rd world electric grid because the coop's will have to spend a lot of cash and might not get it back real quick . every few years they have to spend that money on clean up from storms and they still won't start solving the problem. it might take a long time to do it but it won't happen till you start , bury it .

Bob Bancroft · Dec 1, 2011

Exactly.
You're dam*ed if you do, and dam*ed if you don't ! The lesson of the gas line, in case anyone missed it, is that you can't direct bury anything like that here.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 1, 2011

our coop buried them in the 70's, best thing they ever did, very few outages and usually short in duration, some of the neighboring coops including the Morons at Lyon-Lincoln are mostly above ground are always having lines down and power outages

LJD · Dec 1, 2011

"100 year" basically means it can happen anytime. My point was that many of these "100 year" areas are projected on conditions that no longer exist. As more land gets developed, the water-shed characteristics change and the old 100 year projections are pretty much meaningless. Same goes for relying on older weather cycles.

dr sportster · Dec 1, 2011

The estimated cost was a million dollars per mile. So that means not anytime soon.

Wardner · Dec 1, 2011

"Buried wires are significantly less efficient in current carrying capacity than wires in open air."

Seems like a co-gen opportunity. That heat could be collected and used for heating particularly in hilly areas where fans would not be necessary. Try that with open air lines.

JMOR · Dec 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 17:10:58 12/01/11) Buried wires are significantly less efficient in current carrying capacity than wires in open air.
About 80% efficient if my memory serves me correctly.

o you know why they de-rate for buried wires vs free air? I believe it is due to heat & inability to cool as well when buried, so de-rate to save the insulation from over temp. That would actually mean that when carrying the de-rated currents there are fewer watts lost and actually more 'efficient', but carrying less current. To gain that current carrying capacity back, then you use larger conductors......less loss than in free air for same current (more efficient), but certainly more costly.
As for cost, I priced 1200 foot run to my house & underground was 5X the cost of overhead in 1997. That underground run would have been at 7,200v and I expect the 5X ratio to be greater with 250,000 or 500,000 type transmission voltages.

Jahaze · Dec 1, 2011

If it were only that simple. I work for the power company and we have an almost unlimited budget for tree removal. The problem is the landowners, I'm the one who has to take the calls, we have many people turn us away because they don't want their trees cut. I hear it all the time, and since we only have an easement, we're limited on what we can do, unless it's an emergency. If it were up to most power companies, we'd cut every tree within 100 feet of the line. So if you don't want to loose power, let us do are job and break the chain saws out before the trees hit the line (and be nice to the power company, we're just trying to do our job).

JMOR · Dec 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 21:04:04 12/01/11) If it were only that simple. I work for the power company and we have an almost unlimited budget for tree removal. The problem is the landowners, I'm the one who has to take the calls, we have many people turn us away because they don't want their trees cut. I hear it all the time, and since we only have an easement, we're limited on what we can do, unless it's an emergency. If it were up to most power companies, we'd cut every tree within 100 feet of the line. So if you don't want to loose power, let us do are job and break the chain saws out before the trees hit the line (and be nice to the power company, we're just trying to do our job).

eighbor called FEC about a dead tree leaning toward line & tall enough that it will hit. FEC said that that they had no interest in taking it down. She asked, "don't you care if it knows the wires down & we and others loose power some windy night this winter?" FEC person said, "no'.

Lou from Wi. · Dec 1, 2011

Sow crop. problem solved with a backup generator. We have one and don't rely on continued service due to mother natures revenge.We call the electric service provider and tell em we have a generator on line (master breaker tripped to off) and to call us when power is restored. Electric provider is made aware of the on line generator and does call us when power is reconnected. works for us. LOU

showcrop · Dec 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 19:33:02 12/01/11) Sow crop. problem solved with a backup generator. We have one and don't rely on continued service due to mother natures revenge.We call the electric service provider and tell em we have a generator on line (master breaker tripped to off) and to call us when power is restored. Electric provider is made aware of the on line generator and does call us when power is reconnected. works for us. LOU

My shop is not on the generator, as it is on a separate service, so I put a light in the window facing the house so when I see the light on I go transfer back over to the utility.

TVB · Dec 1, 2011

I am a lineman in the pacific northwest. Underground powerlines will probably put my kids through college. If man made it it will break and it takes a lot longer to find and fix when you can't see it.

JDseller · Dec 1, 2011

They buried the electric service on our road 30 years ago. The gophers seemed to love the insulation. We had power outages all the time. Most time in perfect weather. They buried five wires. They only used three at a time. When they replaced the buried wire with new overhead last year none of the five wires would carry current any more.

I pulled a bunch of it up with a tractor just to look at it. Every few feet the insulation looked funny. About every hundred feet it would be blow off. I only pulled maybe three hundred feet out. It looked like junk to me.

Jon Hagen · Dec 1, 2011

In my part of near treeless ND, many power lines are underground. Our power coop says they are not the magic answer once thought to be. An ice storm and strong wind will bring down overhead lines too.
They are expensive to bury, they do not cool well underground, so they have wire and insulation breakdown issues. They are very difficult to repair under frozen ground in winter, and some of the wire insulation that was promised to last for 50 years is failing after 20. It's a good idea, but it still has it's faults.
The last 2.5 miles of our line are still overhead and give little trouble. Amazing that their are still a few poles from 1949 in there that are still in good condition.

One would think underground lines wiuld be lightning proof, but are not. Lightning will strike the ground and denetrate deep enough to zap the underground cable, then it is time to get the backhoe. Thankfully we do not have winter lightning ;-)

buickanddeere · Dec 2, 2011

Every new subvision in Ontario has buried the
primary,secondary, phone & cable tv wires here for
the past 40+ years.

buickanddeere · Dec 2, 2011

Around here the utility will cut the power off until a proper transfer switch is installed.
Every power outage there are people "who knew what they were doing". They either back feed and energize a 4800 volt distribution line. Or they tie the generator to utility power and smoke the generator.
The dealers get real tired of folk bringing a smoked back fed generator back for warranty. And claiming manufacturing defects...........
Don't be such a cheapskate and public hazard.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

buickanddeere · Dec 2, 2011

Fix the trees with BrushKill.

showcrop · Dec 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 05:16:00 12/02/11) Around here the utility will cut the power off until a proper transfer switch is installed.
Every power outage there are people "who knew what they were doing". They either back feed and energize a 4800 volt distribution line. Or they tie the generator to utility power and smoke the generator.
The dealers get real tired of folk bringing a smoked back fed generator back for warranty. And claiming manufacturing defects...........
Don't be such a cheapskate and public hazard.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

Just curious BVD are you replying to a particular person's post?

Stephen Newell · Dec 2, 2011

I'm sure they are just looking at this issue on a cost basis. While it would be a lot more expensive to bury the wires, afterwards it would be a lot less expensive to maintain. Right now they have a never ending expense of cutting trees back to keep them away from the wires. In addition when there is a natural disaster, they have to import crews from other areas to restore power and I'm sure that is very pricey. I had the electric company bury the electric service to my home 25 years ago because I live in a wooded area and also because I didn't want the eyesore of the poles. In this time I've had at least three occasions where I would have had a tree fall on the electric service.

Traditional Farmer · Dec 2, 2011

The flip side is on my farm I have pointed out dead trees off the right of way the power company should cut to keep from falling on the lines and they won't cut them.

kyplowboy · Dec 2, 2011

Here they don't ask, power company just cuts the trees under and around their lines. After big ice storm here a few years ago they got real busy take'n trees out. I argued with them for hours one day becasue they wanted to take out the dogwoods in my grandmother's yard. They were over 30 years old and were 20' lower than the lines.

Dave

Jahaze · Dec 2, 2011

I guess it depends on the power co, we cut any danger trees, even if they are outside the ROW if there is any chance they could come in contact with the lines. I wish more landowners would call, it would save a lot of grief.

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