Just had a brainstorm... stop me before it's too late..

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
one of my projects in the next couple weeks is heat tape on stall lines. Water source is in a place that we keep between 35-40 degrees in winter and my drinkers are set up so they can be run in a series and I need a line ran about 70 ft (ditch) to a faucet for the back yard stalls. Just got to thinking that it might save energy and the ditch that I am really not ready for (need to finish/do a couple other projects) if I'd start with a small water heater at the source, run thru my drinkers in series, then to the back yard faucet, with a return line back to the tank. Then a circulation pump on a thermostat/timer and heating the water a little for really cold days/nights. Thinking a little circulation pump running 15 minutes +/- an hour would use less power. If all that would work, It'd give the added benefit of a hot water source for a pressure washer and utility sink when needed (by turning on the HWH)

Am I missing anything? Cost is not an issue because I already have everything on hand for both ways.

Dave
 
Your circulation pump may have to run longer than 15 minutes to keep it from freezing in really cold conditions. Remember, "hot water" freezes faster than cold.
 
Perfectly workable approach. Paying something for the energy to warm the water and pump it, but going to pay for heat tracing as well. Be a good idea to insulate the piping to reduce heat loss/prolong time it takes to freeze.

Kirk
 
water heater would be on the lowest setting and on a thermostat to only come on when/if the temp in the room is freezing. Insulation is a gimme and on hand. Also have 2 frostfree hydrants but don't wanna compromise on the location just because of time constraints. Also only talking about a 200 ft loop.

Thanks, Dave
 

Yes certainly a workable solution since you have the pieces parts on hand. I am assuming the supply line would be insulated and would be best if it was self draining - just in case of power failure or whatever.

As an option if you could place a storage tank in a non-freezing area near the stall water units the system would not need to be heated. Simply fill the storage tank and allow the suppy line to drain. This would also eliminate/reduce the need for insulation of the supply line.
 
(quoted from post at 07:01:25 11/22/11)
Yes certainly a workable solution since you have the pieces parts on hand. I am assuming the supply line would be insulated and would be best if it was self draining - just in case of power failure or whatever.

As an option if you could place a storage tank in a non-freezing area near the stall water units the system would not need to be heated. Simply fill the storage tank and allow the suppy line to drain. This would also eliminate/reduce the need for insulation of the supply line.

thinking that would be the hot water tank (drain capabilities) at the source... Or do you have something else in mind? Just wouldn't heat the water unless needed.
 
(quoted from post at 07:06:30 11/22/11)
(quoted from post at 07:01:25 11/22/11)
Yes certainly a workable solution since you have the pieces parts on hand. I am assuming the supply line would be insulated and would be best if it was self draining - just in case of power failure or whatever.

As an option if you could place a storage tank in a non-freezing area near the stall water units the system would not need to be heated. Simply fill the storage tank and allow the suppy line to drain. This would also eliminate/reduce the need for insulation of the supply line.

....thinking that would be the hot water tank (drain capabilities) at the source... Or do you have something else in mind? Just wouldn't heat the water unless needed.

1) I was thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that the 70 ft supply line from the source to the barn is all that needs to be prevented from freezing. In this case my suggestion was to put a storage/holding tank in the barn and supply the drinkers. My thought was that the drinkers etc. in the barn did not need to be protected from freezing. The supply line would be drained after filling the holding tank.

2) In re-reading your post I now think I understand that you desire a non-freezing pressurized loop from the source > drinkers > faucet > back to source. In this case I would agree with your approach, with one caveat. You may want to set the water temperature at say 35 degrees and run the circulating pump continously in freezing weather. With 100 + ft of exposed (or insulated) plumbing you would be subject to a freeze up during the time the water is not circulating. A cold wind blowing on a section of line can freeze it very quickly....shutting down your entire loop.....been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Running the pump continously would prevent localized freeze ups. In addition, the pump would be adding heat to the water since no pump is 100% efficient. In moderate weather, this may allow the water heater to be bypassed. Monitoring the temperature of the returning water (not outside air) would be the best place to measure the temperature, for system control purposes.

Sorry, I intended to review this post before sending but hit submit instead of preview. This edit is to correct spelling, typo's and to clarify. If there are still questions on any statements, please post back. Ken
 
Here's your answer .Yes — a general explanation
Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counterintuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real. It has been seen and studied in numerous experiments. While this phenomenon has been known for centuries, and was described by Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes [1—3], it was not introduced to the modern scientific community until 1969, by a Tanzanian high school pupil named Mpemba. Both the early scientific history of this effect, and the story of Mpemba's rediscovery of it, are interesting in their own right — Mpemba's story in particular providing a dramatic parable against making snap judgements about what is impossible. This is described separately below.

The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect. Because, no doubt, most readers are extremely skeptical at this point, we should begin by stating precisely what we mean by the Mpemba effect. We start with two containers of water, which are identical in shape, and which hold identical amounts of water. The only difference between the two is that the water in one is at a higher (uniform) temperature than the water in the other. Now we cool both containers, using the exact same cooling process for each container. Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first. If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect. Of course, the initially warmer water will not freeze before the initially cooler water for all initial conditions. If the hot water starts at 99.9°C, and the cold water at 0.01°C, then clearly under those circumstances, the initially cooler water will freeze first. However, under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first: if that happens, you have seen the Mpemba effect. But you will not see the Mpemba effect for just any initial temperatures, container shapes, or cooling conditions.

This seems impossible, right? Many sharp readers may have already come up with a common proof that the Mpemba effect is impossible. The proof usually goes something like this. Say that the initially cooler water starts at 30°C and takes 10 minutes to freeze, while the initially warmer water starts out at 70°C. Now the initially warmer water has to spend some time cooling to get to get down to 30°C, and after that, it's going to take 10 more minutes to freeze. So since the initially warmer water has to do everything that the initially cooler water has to do, plus a little more, it will take at least a little longer, right? What can be wrong with this proof?

What's wrong with this proof is that it implicitly assumes that the water is characterized solely by a single number — its average temperature. But if other factors besides the average temperature are important, then when the initially warmer water has cooled to an average temperature of 30°C, it may look very different than the initially cooler water (at a uniform 30°C) did at the start. Why? Because the water may have changed when it cooled down from a uniform 70°C to an average 30°C. It could have less mass, less dissolved gas, or convection currents producing a non-uniform temperature distribution. Or it could have changed the environment around the container in the refrigerator. All four of these changes are conceivably important, and each will be considered separately below. So the impossibility proof given above doesn't work. And in fact the Mpemba effect has been observed in a number of controlled experiments [5,7—14]

It is still not known exactly why this happens. A number of possible explanations for the effect have been proposed, but so far the experiments do not show clearly which, if any, of the proposed mechanisms is the most important one. While you will often hear confident claims that X is the cause of the Mpemba effect, such claims are usually based on guesswork, or on looking at the evidence in only a few papers and ignoring the rest. Of course, there is nothing wrong with informed theoretical guesswork or being selective in which experimental results you trust; the problem is that different people make different claims as to what X is.

Why hasn't modern science answered this seemingly simple question about cooling water? The main problem is that the time it takes water to freeze is highly sensitive to a number of details in the experimental setup, such as the shape and size of the container, the shape and size of the refrigeration unit, the gas and impurity content of the water, how the time of freezing is defined, and so on. Because of this sensitivity, while experiments have generally agreed that the Mpemba effect occurs, they disagree over the conditions under which it occurs, and thus about why it occurs. As Firth [7] wrote "There is a wealth of experimental variation in the problem so that any laboratory undertaking such investigations is guaranteed different results from all others."

So with the limited number of experiments done, often under very different conditions, none of the proposed mechanisms can be confidently proclaimed as "the" mechanism. Above we described four ways in which the initially warmer water could have changed upon cooling to the initial temperature of the initially cooler water. What follows below is a short description of the four related mechanisms that have been suggested to explain the Mpemba effect. More ambitious readers can follow the links to more complete explanations of the mechanisms, as well as counter-arguments and experiments that the mechanisms cannot explain. It seems likely that there is no one mechanism that explains the Mpemba effect for all circumstances, but that different mechanisms are important under different conditions.

Evaporation — As the initially warmer water cools to the initial temperature of the initially cooler water, it may lose significant amounts of water to evaporation. The reduced mass will make it easier for the water to cool and freeze. Then the initially warmer water can freeze before the initially cooler water, but will make less ice. Theoretical calculations have shown that evaporation can explain the Mpemba effect if you assume that the water loses heat solely through evaporation [11]. This explanation is solid, intuitive, and evaporation is undoubtedly important in most situations. However, it is not the only mechanism. Evaporation cannot explain experiments that were done in closed containers, where no mass was lost to evaporation [12]. And many scientists have claimed that evaporation alone is insufficient to explain their results [5,9,12].


Dissolved Gasses — Hot water can hold less dissolved gas than cold water, and large amounts of gas escape upon boiling. So the initially warmer water may have less dissolved gas than the initially cooler water. It has been speculated that this changes the properties of the water in some way, perhaps making it easier to develop convection currents (and thus making it easier to cool), or decreasing the amount of heat required to freeze a unit mass of water, or changing the boiling point. There are some experiments that favor this explanation [10,14], but no supporting theoretical calculations.


Convection — As the water cools it will eventually develop convection currents and a non-uniform temperature distribution. At most temperatures, density decreases with increasing temperature, and so the surface of the water will be warmer than the bottom: this has been called a "hot top." Now if the water loses heat primarily through the surface, then water with a "hot top" will lose heat faster than we would expect based on its average temperature. When the initially warmer water has cooled to an average temperature the same as the initial temperature of the initially cooler water, it will have a "hot top", and thus its rate of cooling will be faster than the rate of cooling of the initially cooler water at the same average temperature. Got all that? You might want to read this paragraph again, paying careful distinction to the difference between initial temperature, average temperature, and temperature. While experiments have seen the "hot top", and related convection currents, it is unknown whether convection can by itself explain the Mpemba effect.


Surroundings — A final difference between the cooling of the two containers relates not to the water itself, but to the surrounding environment. The initially warmer water may change the environment around it in some complex fashion, and thus affect the cooling process. For example, if the container is sitting on a layer of frost which conducts heat poorly, the hot water may melt that layer of frost, and thus establish a better cooling system in the long run. Obviously explanations like this are not very general, since most experiments are not done with containers sitting on layers of frost.

Finally, supercooling may be important to the effect. Supercooling occurs when the water freezes not at 0°C, but at some lower temperature. One experiment [12] found that its initially hot water supercooled less than its initially cold water. This would mean that the initially warmer water might freeze first because it would freeze at a higher temperature than the initially cooler water. If true, this would not fully explain the Mpemba effect, because we would still need to explain why initially warmer water supercools less than initially cooler water.

In short, hot water does freeze sooner than cold water under a wide range of circumstances. It is not impossible, and has been seen to occur in a number of experiments. However, despite claims often made by one source or another, there is no well-agreed explanation for how this phenomenon occurs. Different mechanisms have been proposed, but the experimental evidence is inconclusive. For those wishing to read more on the subject, Jearl Walker's article in Scientific American [13] is very readable and has suggestions on how to do home experiments on the Mpemba effect, while the articles by Auerbach [12] and Wojciechowski [14] are two of the more modern papers on the effect.
 
Pretty good article Lou. As one who has spent most of my professional life being concerned about the physical properties of water I am going to contend that for Dave"s purposes none of this will apply and hot water will indeed take longer than cold to freeze. This is one of those "scientific" oddities that really gets down more to how the experiments are conducted and what the "control" is (i.e. what variables are being allowed to change.)

Kirk
 
We got married in 1972. From Dec.1973 until Feb 1982 we lived in a small farm old farmhouse with an enclosed porch added on. The water heater was on this porch and when it got below 0°, the hot water pipe going thru the wall into the house would freeze. A pain in the rear to thaw out and not catch the house on fire with the little propane torch. The next year, I bought a small oil burning heater and kept it lit on the porch when it got real cold. Porch was nice and warm and the water didn't freeze. I was told that hot water freezes faster because when you heat it, some of the air escapes from the water. Just my experience. Good times in that old house, all 3 of our kids were born while we lived there. Chris
 
Dave, not sure how you are going to hook it up to your yard faucet but you may want to consider some sort of check valve at the faucet to prevent water from the drinkers being pumped back into the source if there is ever low water pressure.
 
(quoted from post at 21:09:42 11/22/11) Dave, not sure how you are going to hook it up to your yard faucet but you may want to consider some sort of check valve at the faucet to prevent water from the drinkers being pumped back into the source if there is ever low water pressure.

faucet would be at the farthest point, just thought I'd stick in a T with the faucet in it. Have to do some head scratching on keeping the faucet itself from freezing.
 

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