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OT---Surprising Electrical Situation

J

Jiles

Well-known Member
I bought a different, newer, home about two years ago. I spoke to the owner about why all the electrical outlets were "Upside down" at least to my thinking, and he just looked at me!
All receptacles in this home, and Garage have the ground terminal (round) on top.
When you plug in an air freshener--the cartridge falls out. When you plug in a refrigerator with the flat plug, the cord travels up the wall and then travels down.
This is not a great problem, but I have never owned a home wired this way.
What is surprising is that I posted this situation on THREE different Electrical Forums and Most--supposidly electricians--said there was no cod stating the correct installation but this was the preferred way????
Several said that if the cord plug was pulled out, a short distance, and something metal fell--flat down the wall---the ground terminal being at the top, would help prevent an electrical short. In other words---hot and neutral would not be shorted.
I wasn't too concerned about this situation until I went to the refrigerator one day and it was off. The cord had somehow worked it way partly out!
I removed the outlet and flipped it around. I have since did this to many of my outlets but I have a few to go.
Just a minor annoyance that takes time.
I just wonder how many outlets are installed "upsidedown"?
 
Yearsssssssssss ago when I was an electrical power distribution engineer we had to attend training updates every 2 or 3 years AND LIKEWISE THE INSTRUCTORS THERE TOLD US IF THE GROUND WAS ON TOP IF SOMETHING FELL OR IF YOU WERE WEARING A NECKLACE AND IT DROPPED DOWN ON A PARTIAL REMOVED PLUG ETC THE BREAKER WOULD MORE LIKELY TRIP BETTER THEN IF IT WERE ON THE BOTTOM AND IT WAS THEREFORE THE SAFEST MOUNTING.

HOWEVER appliance plugs can be such that its better if on the bottom SO WHATS A BODY TO DO

HOWEVER ALSO its been years since I attended NEC training but back then it DID NOT address the mounting, ground top or ground bottom, guess I will have to research thE latest NEC n see what it has to say, if anything???

Can anybody here cite the exact latest NEC reference if it exists??? before I have to search???

John T Long retired EE
 
My buddy worked maintenance in a hospital and all theirs were that way, but they had stainless steel switch and plug plates. And, like you were told the "something metal" in this case was the plate themselves. Theirs were this way incase the plug wall plate was to drop on an appliance plug it wouldn't short. Why one would do this in a home is beyond me.
 
(quoted from post at 20:27:28 09/05/11) I bought a different, newer, home about two years ago. I spoke to the owner about why all the electrical outlets were "Upside down" at least to my thinking, and he just looked at me!
All receptacles in this home, and Garage have the ground terminal (round) on top.
When you plug in an air freshener--the cartridge falls out. When you plug in a refrigerator with the flat plug, the cord travels up the wall and then travels down.
This is not a great problem, but I have never owned a home wired this way.
What is surprising is that I posted this situation on THREE different Electrical Forums and Most--supposidly electricians--said there was no cod stating the correct installation but this was the preferred way????
Several said that if the cord plug was pulled out, a short distance, and something metal fell--flat down the wall---the ground terminal being at the top, would help prevent an electrical short. In other words---hot and neutral would not be shorted.
I wasn't too concerned about this situation until I went to the refrigerator one day and it was off. The cord had somehow worked it way partly out!
I removed the outlet and flipped it around. I have since did this to many of my outlets but I have a few to go.
Just a minor annoyance that takes time.
I just wonder how many outlets are installed "upsidedown"?
Click to expand...
ick up a plug & start to plug it in (try gnd on top & gnd on bottom) and see for yourself which way one of your fingers is more likely to come into contact with a hot blade.........it ain't rocket science.
 
I have a copy of the Saskatchewan Electrical code book,afew years old, and it doesn't say which way they should go. Line drawings of circuits in the book show them with the ground up. When I wired my garage I did them that way and the inspector passed it without saying a word.
 
I was told 34 years ago by an inspector he preferred
the ground on the bottom. his theory was that if the
plug worked it's way out of the receptacle the
ground would be the last to disconnect. I don't
understand why this hasn't been standardized and
made code, but then that would be one more thing for
the conservatives to complain about too much government!
 
The NEC still does not have anything about mounting with ground up or ground down. What about if installed horzontial? Ground to right or to the left. Have done electrical wiring for over 40 years and I install with ground down. Have state license for NC.
 
10 year old house and mine are down. As a side note the contractor lined up all of the screws on every switch and outlet in this house, they are all horizontal.
 
I just wonder why so many transformers, room deoderizers and such, are designed to be used with the ground on bottom. No problem except when a "polarixed" plug is installed.
I just ran into such a problem today. I had to unplug my TV because it was plugged into the top receptical and wouldn't allow an upsidedown transformer to be plugged into the bottom.
Therefore the TV had to be programmed again. Not by me, but the dish network.
As Stated--no big problems, just annoyances! When time permits--I will rotate that outlet because the transformer will eventually work its way out, with it's weight above.
 
Installation instructions for many GFI (Ground Fault Interuptor) outlets recommend that the GFI outlet and any down stream outlets be installed with the ground on top to indicate the outlet is GFI protected. The printing on the test and reset buttons reads correctly when the ground is up. Some GFI outlet have two sets of printing so they can be installed either way.
 
I prefer my grounds down, because of appliance plugs. However, I do see the point of their being on top. I have a handsaw with two notches, about half-inch apart midway of the blade, from where it fell and landed perfectly on top of the plug of my sander cord.
 
My oldest son just had a house, that he is selling, fail a electrical inspection because the ground was down. The new Iowa code states that the ground should be on the top. It is so things can not slide down the wall an knock the plug out and hit a hot pin.

We switched them all around and had to pay a $150 dollar re-inspection fee to the county. It has turned into a real racket here. Houses that have breaker boxes being failed because the box is too old. One neighbor had to put in a new box to sell his mother's house that was just built in 1985.

You are supposed to have all electrical work done by a certified electrician. The inspector asked my son for a copy of his bill where he paid to have the outlets turned over. I was there and asked the inspector if his wife knew where he went every Wed. night.( I know him and he cheat on his wife all of the time. I had seen him at a widowed womans house the last several Wed. nights) It was amazing that he not longer needed to see that paid bill. I think he is failing the houses to get the re-inspection fee. Our county supervisors are too stupid to see what is going on. Voters complain but supervisors blame the state for the problems.

I have every out let on my farm and four rental houses all with the ground down. I wonder if the insurance company would try to use this to get out of paying is I have a fire or loss????
 
Personally I like then with the ground up. I have wired hundreds of houses and always did it that way. For one thing I think it is easier to connect the wiring and install them with the ground up.
 
This same subject came up a few years ago, what is the correct way to mount that thing, ground up or ground down ??
I was thinking about that when I walked into my garage. I have two upright freezers in there.
One freezer plug has the ground on the same side of the plug as the cord, the other has the ground on the end of the plug opposite the cord.
Both are plugged into one grounded wall fixture.
Because of the freezer plugs being built opposite of each other, one cord hangs down while the other has to make a 180 turn before hanging down.
No way to win that one ;-)
 
they were installed per National Elictric Code
you are changing them to be in violation of the NEC
need to see how they were tested by UL which is ground up and they are to be installed that way by NEC

FLAME AWAY EVERYBODY WHO KNOWS MORE THAN THE NEC
 
I always install them ground down. My son, who's a licensed electrician, always installs them ground up. As far as I know, the NEC doesn't specify the orientation. Could be a recent change, but I doubt the NEC would make it a hard requirement, since almost all appliance cords are designed for ground-down orientation.

I started seeing the "upside down" receptacles on new construction forty years ago, so this isn't a new thing. I'll bet electricians have been debating it since grounded outlets were first introduced.
 
Something falling on the plug with the ground up doesn't make sense since the majority of household items plugged in are without grounds. I don't like ground up either.
 
If you take a very close look at the switch the brand or persons name that designed it is written on it.I dont beleive he ever intendant for his name to be up side down

jimmy
 
THANKS FOR THE INFO,

I, as a past design engineer, am a true fan and believer in the NEC

CAN YOU PLEASE CITE ME THE CODE REFERENCE THAT REQUIRES GROUND UP that way we can reference to it when this question comes up

Thanks in advance

John T Longggggggg retired EE any my NEC copy is older then dirt lol
 
John,

Question since in residential applications most ground and neutral buss' are bonded... so wouldn't it be a mute point?
 
I see them both ways.Son in law is an electrician and he puts the ground up.Freezer and refridgerator plugs are made to have the ground down.The average 15a outlets are junk.Some loose ones I removed have very little contact surface.Your refridgerator and freezer should have a 20 amp rated outlet.The 20A have a firm grip that wont let a plug fall out.My freezer has a metal bracket that fastens under the plate screw.That plug cant come out.I have noticed that hospital outlets always have the ground pin down.A 20 amp outlet has a horizontal slot on one of the blades and costs about 4 bucks.I have a 20 amp outlet where the coffee maker, toaster and food processor get plugged in.We had a toaster that came on when it was up and turned off when you put bread in it.A small part had broken.GE made a bunch of coffemakers that caught fire.We know the battery powered tool chargers have caused may fires.Battery chargers can cause fires.
 
When the ground pin is on top the plastic housing doesn't break out like it does when the groiund pin is on the bottom. The pin on the bottom of a ground down installation will often break the plastic housing adjacent to the lower ground receptacle pin. Maybe the refrigerator and deoderizer companies need to be asked why they put the plugs on their devices upside down.
 
The Nec does not state how to install. You may have a local code that does but not the NEC. I got a 2011 copy and it is not in it. DH
 
Over the years I have seen some strange work done by licensed electricians.An electrical inspector told me that ground rods were made of lead with copper plating.I knew better.The pastors husband came to see me one sunday morning.He said that the lights in the church came on normal when he switched on one side.They dimmed way down when he switched on the other side.I took my meter and found the entrance box was hot.Switched off the main breakers.Checked the meter box and found it hot above ground.I told him to cancel services and call the electrician who had just done major wiring on the entrance box.While Im not an electrician I knew this meant lost neutral.I did appliance service for many years and did my own wiring.Found plenty of water heaters that energized plumbing systems because of poor grounding.
 
(quoted from post at 02:27:53 09/06/11) I always install them ground down. My son, who's a licensed electrician, always installs them ground up. As far as I know, the NEC doesn't specify the orientation. Could be a recent change, but I doubt the NEC would make it a hard requirement, since almost all appliance cords are designed for ground-down orientation.

I started seeing the "upside down" receptacles on new construction forty years ago, so this isn't a new thing. I'll bet electricians have been debating it since grounded outlets were first introduced.
Click to expand...

never saw one ground up as a kid and put on thousands of recepticle covers when trimming out and finishing houses and apartments that dad worked. those big apartment units were all done in waves by different contractors (electric, heating, etc) all ground down. Mostly in WV so no tellin if it was right or wrong tho :roll:

Anyway, we have 230 volt here but US facilities have 110 outlets in them also and some of the bigger german hotels have 110 for possible US guests. I just went and looked in a bunch of offices and everything is ground up. Saw the electricians working down the hall and asked them. They couldn't answer it either other than the wires come from top (like someone mentioned here) and also the being able to read the manufacture's name. They got curious also and called their boss. 30 minutes later he called back and said that all 110 outlets were installed IAW the US code book they have.......
 
I just did a quick walk around the building where I work and all the outlets are installed with the ground pins up.

Frankly, that's pretty much the only way I've ever seen them installed. Ground pin on the bottom is "upside down" to me.
 
I have an olddddddddd copy and its not there either??????????? I asked the poster for the specific cite he talks about whereby the NEC requires ground up or down, havent got the answer yet

John T Long retired EE with an oldddddddd NEC
 
The first three wire receptacles I ever seen installed was the new house that Dad had built in 1968. I always install the receptacles this way. Later everywhere receptacles were installed with the ground pin down. Cords were also set-up this was. When My mother was in a relatively newly constructed nursing home in the LAST stages of Alzheimer's I notice the plug were installed ground pin UP. I said something to my Brother who has a Doctorate in Physic. He told me that there is a code requirement for the position of the receptacle. He said in a fire investigation it was discovered that a piece of paper had fell and landed on a the ground and the hot blades of a cord that was not fully inserted in to the receptacle which had it's ground pin down. This started a fire. The new code also says if you lay the receptacle down, the WIDE blade must be UP.

Kent
 
(quoted from post at 15:43:05 09/06/11) The first three wire receptacles I ever seen installed was the new house that Dad had built in 1968. I always install the receptacles this way. Later everywhere receptacles were installed with the ground pin down. Cords were also set-up this was. When My mother was in a relatively newly constructed nursing home in the LAST stages of Alzheimer's I notice the plug were installed ground pin UP. I said something to my Brother who has a Doctorate in Physic. He told me that there is a code requirement for the position of the receptacle. [b:41335e32e9]He said in a fire investigation it was discovered that a piece of paper had fell and landed on a the ground and the hot blades of a cord that was not fully inserted in to the receptacle which had it's ground pin down. [/b:41335e32e9]This started a fire. The new code also says if you lay the receptacle down, the WIDE blade must be UP.

Kent
Click to expand...
[b:41335e32e9]He said in a fire investigation it was discovered that a piece of paper had fell and landed on a the ground and the hot blades of a cord that was not fully inserted in to the receptacle which had it's ground pin down. [/b:41335e32e9] I don't fully understand how a piece of paper conducted electricity?? Also--how did the paper contact the ground with it on the bottom??
 
(quoted from post at 07:58:03 09/06/11) I don't fully understand how a piece of paper conducted electricity?? Also--how did the paper contact the ground with it on the bottom??
Click to expand...

Wet paper? typo on which pins got touched???
 
For giggles Im looking at the ones in my office right now, they are all ground pin up. the ones in our break room are the same way. This office was added in about 6 years ago, before I started, and the breakroom was built in the mid 80s, so Im told. The ones in the warehouse are the same way, and this warehouse is close to 30 years old
 
My wife is a Home Engineer, I learned a long time ago not to
argue with her!

2936.jpg


Sperry Instruments sets their tester up this way.
It will work the other way but the lights will be backards
and you won't be able to read the little dots and I have
a short term memory problem and won't remember
which dots are where. :)

2935.jpg
 
THANKS --MO8N4ME---I have a tester identical to that, haven't used it while in this home, and I agree---it would be difficult to read.
 
I had a new building put up last year, had a liscened electricion wire it. He put the ground plugs down. It passed the Iowa state inspection.
 
I was going to comment that anybody with half a brain doesn't put stuff on the wall so it could slide down the wall and get caught in the plug, but then I got to thinking I've met some real D.A.'s in my time.
My preference is ground on the bottom so cords hang straight down with the least amount of strain on them.
 
(quoted from post at 20:48:25 09/06/11) I was going to comment that anybody with half a brain doesn't put stuff on the wall so it could slide down the wall and get caught in the plug, but then I got to thinking I've met some real D.A.'s in my time.
My preference is ground on the bottom so cords hang straight down with the least amount of strain on them.
Click to expand...
nd as I already said, grab a plug & plug it in....let your fingers slide forward just about 1/2 inch.........if gnd on bottom, index finger (most forward) slides onto the gnd & no harm done. . HOWEVER, if ground is on top, index finger (most forward) slides into the blades (one is hot)! Index is more forward than thumb. You can also see the hot blade when it is on top. No matter if you can see ground or not.
 
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