- Thread starter DanR
- Start date
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
Direct bury would be the easiest and probably the least costly, but you need to check your local codes.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
You don't say what your power requirements are. That kind of matters.
Romex is a big no-no, even in conduit. UF (underground feeder) is OK for direct burial. Whether you want to go to the expense and aggravation of running 200 feet of conduit is up to you.
Personally, if I'm going to dig a trench, I'm going to put in big enough service that I don't have to do it again. That means 100 amp service, four strands of USE (underground service equipment). Separate ground and neutral, ground rods at the outbuilding. I ran #2 USE to my shop, but it's only 125 feet from the meter; you should go heavier.
Romex is a big no-no, even in conduit. UF (underground feeder) is OK for direct burial. Whether you want to go to the expense and aggravation of running 200 feet of conduit is up to you.
Personally, if I'm going to dig a trench, I'm going to put in big enough service that I don't have to do it again. That means 100 amp service, four strands of USE (underground service equipment). Separate ground and neutral, ground rods at the outbuilding. I ran #2 USE to my shop, but it's only 125 feet from the meter; you should go heavier.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Crossing lawn or driveway? Electrical loads?
Four wires in conduit works well.
When trenching may as well run another conduit for
future phone, security, alarm system, internet etc.
Four wires in conduit works well.
When trenching may as well run another conduit for
future phone, security, alarm system, internet etc.
Of course direct bury UF is easy, just dig a trench n bury the cable. HOWEVER I'm like Mark, if you bury conduit then snake the cable (USE or THWN, I forget????) through youre better protected and can upgrade sooooooo much easier. I wouldnt run any less then 100 amps of service (No 1 copper should allow for voltage drop) or at least use big enought conduit and wire so that much could be supplied if and when needeed. Id use rigid conduit risers where the underground conduit rises up above the ground (or under driveways) and LB's into your building.
For 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire serive, run 2 Hots (L1 & L2),,,,,1 Neutral (a GrounDED conductor),,,,,,,1 Equipment GroundING conductor) and at the remote buildings panel DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT bond the Neutral and Equipment Ground Busses together (keep isolated i.e. need a panel that allows for such) like is done at the main service entrance. Of course each buildings service still requires adequate earth grounding such as made grounding electrodes like driven copper rod or rods or metallic water pipe etc etc.
Its not that bad of a job to bury plastic pipe and the wire wont be much more expensvive then Underground Feeder UF and with 100 amp rated conductors or bigger to allow for voltage drop (if youre not going over 100) then youre set for life
Leavin Half Century of Progress in Ilinois headed for Ohio today
John T
For 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire serive, run 2 Hots (L1 & L2),,,,,1 Neutral (a GrounDED conductor),,,,,,,1 Equipment GroundING conductor) and at the remote buildings panel DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT bond the Neutral and Equipment Ground Busses together (keep isolated i.e. need a panel that allows for such) like is done at the main service entrance. Of course each buildings service still requires adequate earth grounding such as made grounding electrodes like driven copper rod or rods or metallic water pipe etc etc.
Its not that bad of a job to bury plastic pipe and the wire wont be much more expensvive then Underground Feeder UF and with 100 amp rated conductors or bigger to allow for voltage drop (if youre not going over 100) then youre set for life
Leavin Half Century of Progress in Ilinois headed for Ohio today
John T
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Missed having you at the 2011 NY Expo.
I tried to fill your shoes but nearly tripped a few times.
I tried to fill your shoes but nearly tripped a few times.
Run 4 wires of #10 U/G, and put it inside gray conduit. That gives an extra level of protection if someone is digging with a shovel. Not going to help if a ditcher gets in to it.
Run 220 volts to your shed. You may think you will never need it, but what if you do later?
Ground wire on the house end only, do not tie the ground wire to a rod at the shed. This can form a loop and lightning will have a blast.
Run 220 volts to your shed. You may think you will never need it, but what if you do later?
Ground wire on the house end only, do not tie the ground wire to a rod at the shed. This can form a loop and lightning will have a blast.
_Everyone_ who isn't n electrician suggests #10 wire for any electrical run of any kind..... I guess because one ises #14 & #12 in the building, they assume the next size bigger can do everything else????
There is no way in he double toothpicks that you will get any useful juice at the end of 200 feet of #10 wire.
The longer the wire, the bigger it needs to be.
A person is a pennywise fool if they plan for less than a 60 amp service in a building these days. Just dumb. 100 or 200 is better, but at least go 60 or you are wasting time & money with foolish ideas.
That means you will have at least #3 aluminum feed wire, 4 seperate wires, you will deal with the ground buses properly, you will use the right clamp types rated for aluminum to copper along with the right grease, and so forth. You could do #1 copper, but after pricing, you'll get off the ground and do the sluminum direct bury.
If you are considering #10 and you don't realize the difference between different wire types - the insulation reacts differently when in air, in conduit, or directly in the ground and you need to pick the right one....
I kinda fear you will be making a rather dangerous setup here. Could you get some after hours work from a bit of an electrician to help you out????? Bad electrical setups can sit for years waiting to fry somelone.....
--->Paul
There is no way in he double toothpicks that you will get any useful juice at the end of 200 feet of #10 wire.
The longer the wire, the bigger it needs to be.
A person is a pennywise fool if they plan for less than a 60 amp service in a building these days. Just dumb. 100 or 200 is better, but at least go 60 or you are wasting time & money with foolish ideas.
That means you will have at least #3 aluminum feed wire, 4 seperate wires, you will deal with the ground buses properly, you will use the right clamp types rated for aluminum to copper along with the right grease, and so forth. You could do #1 copper, but after pricing, you'll get off the ground and do the sluminum direct bury.
If you are considering #10 and you don't realize the difference between different wire types - the insulation reacts differently when in air, in conduit, or directly in the ground and you need to pick the right one....
I kinda fear you will be making a rather dangerous setup here. Could you get some after hours work from a bit of an electrician to help you out????? Bad electrical setups can sit for years waiting to fry somelone.....
--->Paul
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Listen to Paul.
If you can't start and run an aircompressor,
lights, run a skill saw and have some heat at the
same time. You will always kick yourself for
undersizing the supply.
Lights and receptacles need to be on two
different circuits, sharing a neural is fine. So
240V to the shed.
Use a ground rod at the shed end panel.
How lucky do you feel? Ever hear tell of folk
trying to claim fire insurance and non-inspected
electrical work is found? Is it worth the risk?
If you can't start and run an aircompressor,
lights, run a skill saw and have some heat at the
same time. You will always kick yourself for
undersizing the supply.
Lights and receptacles need to be on two
different circuits, sharing a neural is fine. So
240V to the shed.
Use a ground rod at the shed end panel.
How lucky do you feel? Ever hear tell of folk
trying to claim fire insurance and non-inspected
electrical work is found? Is it worth the risk?
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Go big. The absolute minimum I would consider for such an installation would be 6/3 UF, which would allow you to have one 240V/15A circuit and two 120V/20A circuits, which is the minimum for a compressor, lights and outlets. (You don't have a 240V compressor NOW, but you WILL in the future.) And once you price 6/3 UF versus #2 aluminum USE, you'll see it makes no sense to put less than 100 amp service to your outbuilding.
Whether or not it will be inspected is immaterial. If you're digging a trench, you want to do it right the first time.
Whether or not it will be inspected is immaterial. If you're digging a trench, you want to do it right the first time.
Only No 10????????? If he is just gonna pull 20 amps or so and figuring 200 ft of voltage drop that can work, but not may people use only 10 gauge for a remote outbuilding 200 feet away, but hey its his building n he can do as he pleases I reckon lol
You say ground at the house end only????? Ever read the NEC that any buildings electrical service requires a Ground???
John T Longgggg retired electrical enginner who designed AC power distribution for a living so I could be rusty on the latest code but Id sure establish an earth ground at any remote out buildings electrical service entrance !!!!!!!! and if I was gonna run a service out Id sure have more then only 20 or 30 amps of copper.
Hope this helps, yall be safe now
You say ground at the house end only????? Ever read the NEC that any buildings electrical service requires a Ground???
John T Longgggg retired electrical enginner who designed AC power distribution for a living so I could be rusty on the latest code but Id sure establish an earth ground at any remote out buildings electrical service entrance !!!!!!!! and if I was gonna run a service out Id sure have more then only 20 or 30 amps of copper.
Hope this helps, yall be safe now
Hey its your building and your life but Id listen to professional electricians and engineers if my life n safety is at stake......If you wanna run just No 10 and if you start pullin 20 to 30 amps the voltage drop is gonna be significant!!
And YES for sure at any buildings electrical service Id sure establish a ground !!!!
John T Longggggg retired electrical power distribution design engineer so rusty as an old nail on the latest NEC but Mark is current and practicing I believe so best listen to him and electricians on something like this is my best free advice
And YES for sure at any buildings electrical service Id sure establish a ground !!!!
John T Longggggg retired electrical power distribution design engineer so rusty as an old nail on the latest NEC but Mark is current and practicing I believe so best listen to him and electricians on something like this is my best free advice
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
John, just to be clear, I'm not currently a practicing EE. I've been in IT for many years, although my son is a licensed electrician and we both try to stay current on the NEC.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Save yourself the headache............................ unless this is your mancave.....
http://www.harborfreight.com/engine...-3500-max-watts-gasoline-generator-67560.html
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
There is a saying in the insurance industry, "We do cover stupidity"
Unless there is proof of intentional negligence, they will pay.
Gene
Unless there is proof of intentional negligence, they will pay.
Gene
Paul from MI
Well-known Member
Can't be too big or buried too dep. Considering voltage drop #10 is way too small. Someday you'll want a welder or whatever. Size your wiring for a 100 amp service and allow for the voltage drop for the distance involved. Whether or not you use a buried conduit or direct burial wire is up to you, but an oversize conduit would allow for later expansion.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Maybe a case of somebody wanting an under $100 project to power the shop?
Don't use indoor rated wire outdoors, even in a conduit. The insulation will eventualy fail.
I had an air conditioner condensor fan motor go out because of improper wiring. The original electricial used indoot rated romex in a short two foot conduit to the outdoor part air conditioner. Water collected in the conduit and broke down the insulation. At 12 years the insulation broke down and allowed the wires to leak current between the conductors. The short wasn't big enough to trip the circuit breaker, but the motor ran at reduced voltage and quickly burnt out the first day of cooling season. An extra dime for the proper wire would have elliminated several hundred dollars of unnecessary repaires.
I had an air conditioner condensor fan motor go out because of improper wiring. The original electricial used indoot rated romex in a short two foot conduit to the outdoor part air conditioner. Water collected in the conduit and broke down the insulation. At 12 years the insulation broke down and allowed the wires to leak current between the conductors. The short wasn't big enough to trip the circuit breaker, but the motor ran at reduced voltage and quickly burnt out the first day of cooling season. An extra dime for the proper wire would have elliminated several hundred dollars of unnecessary repaires.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
You need to give an example. In my experience, where wire is available in both solid and stranded conductors (eg. AWG 6 bare copper), the price is very close, with solid being a little cheaper. So there's some other difference in the particular cables you're comparing.
Generally speaking, the only reason for using stranded wire is flexibility. And when you get into the larger conductors, unstranded wire would be almost impossible to bend, so it's not even a choice.
Generally speaking, the only reason for using stranded wire is flexibility. And when you get into the larger conductors, unstranded wire would be almost impossible to bend, so it's not even a choice.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Can you buy a 200 foot extension cord for under a hundred? Problem solved!
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