Federal Fire Siren

Poor Farmer 830 · Jul 21, 2011

On a small dept in central illinois, and we have a federal type 5 siren, i recently had it taken down, local electrician said it was shot that the brushes were gone and couldnt replace them and the armature was shot, Im not really experience with these old sirens here are some pictures if anyone has any info on it or know where i could maybe find parts or get it fixed i would appreciate it.

buickanddeere · Jul 21, 2011

Doesn't look that bad. The sparky probably doesn't deal with DC/universal AC motors.
A cleanup, bearing check, turn the commutator a little. Brushes can be located.
Wear ear plugs plus high quality external ear muff protectors.

RayP(MI) · Jul 21, 2011

56 amps at 240 volts? Holy cow, bet every light in town dims when that thing kicks in! Brushes probably available at an electric motor shop, and they can probably turn the armature a bit while they"re at it.

PopinJohn · Jul 21, 2011

That is one serious siren.
Looks restorable to me.

johnw (OR) · Jul 21, 2011

they just restored one down in Las Vegas on that
american restoration show on TV they found motor parts.

Paul from MI · Jul 21, 2011

Check with your local forklift dealer. Most of the old electric forklifts had motors with brushes similar to this siren, might find some to fit it. Armature can be turned to true it up, may need to be undercut afterwards, but not much of a job.

Greenday · Jul 21, 2011

You should be able to take it to any reputable electric motor rebuilding shop and have it rebuilt. I refurbished one just like that several years ago.

buickanddeere · Jul 21, 2011

Approx 12 shaft HP.

Tim/NC · Jul 21, 2011

Parts should not be too hard to find.Have rebuilt several in the past. With the advancement in pagers and radios plus rural areas being taken over by housing there are lot on fire stations not in use.

Poor Farmer 830 · Jul 21, 2011

It still works but sounds like its on its death bed. If anyone has any idea what it would cost it find a new rotor for it, I hate to see something so neat go to waste Its blown at 12 and 9 for the past fifty years and would love for it to be around for another fifty years.

buickanddeere · Jul 21, 2011

Doesn't need a new armature. Just a squaring up and new brushes.

NCWayne · Jul 22, 2011

When I moved out to my place about 15 years ago there was one at the local volunteer fire department that was tested at noon every Saturday. For some reason the quit doing it about 6 years or so ago....It's funny how you miss things like that when they are gone.

As far as your problem, like others have said a reputable motor shop ought to be able to repair it for you without alot of problems. If you don't have any in your area there is a place here in NC close to me that I know could do it for you. I'd be happy to pass along their info if you need it.

Karl in MD · Jul 22, 2011

New brushes, get them to turn and undercut the commutator. Most places, you have to get permission from Central Dispatch to test sirens. We used to rebuild them at the motor shop where I worked. Any good electric motor shop should be able to rebuild it.

Billy Shafer · Jul 22, 2011

I agree any good rewind shop should be able to restore it. Also check out the Siren that the Civil Defense units had. Powered by a 383 Chrysler engine. That thing will make your knees weak.

JMOR · Jul 22, 2011

(quoted from post at 21:46:21 07/21/11) Approx 12 shaft HP.

How about 5HP stamped on the tag instead of "approx 12hp"?

buickanddeere · Jul 22, 2011

Well that's embarrassing not seeing what was in
plain view.
The 12HP came from 240volts X 56amps /746 for
total power in HP x.67 efficiency.
5HP seems like a low number? Even a single phase
10HP 240V AC motor without power factor correction
capacitors draws approx 50amp.

JMOR · Jul 22, 2011

(quoted from post at 12:13:36 07/22/11) Well that's embarrassing not seeing what was in
plain view.
The 12HP came from 240volts X 56amps /746 for
total power in HP x.67 efficiency.
5HP seems like a low number? Even a single phase
10HP 240V AC motor without power factor correction
capacitors draws approx 50amp.

es, it does seem terribly in-efficient.
With that commutator, it may me repulsion start/induction run & I have no efficiency numbers on those, but "induction run", I don't expect anything terribly abnormal.??? Those generally required brush lifting or brush switch out after start up.....don't see mechanism, but not much of a picture either.

Eric in IL · Jul 22, 2011

If you are anywhere near Litchfield Illinois there is a small shop called LITCHFIELD PUMP & MOTOR. They always treat me right and I bet they could fix it up. Their phone number is (217) 324-3898.

buickanddeere · Jul 23, 2011

An AC universal motor has starting torque at least
as great as an repulsion start/induction run. The AC
universal motor will also turn much faster for siren
duty. Than the 3450rpm a two pole AC induction motor
develops from 60Hz power.
That again just about anything is possible.

JMOR · Jul 24, 2011

(quoted from post at 23:24:01 07/23/11) An AC universal motor has starting torque at least
as great as an repulsion start/induction run. The AC
universal motor will also turn much faster for siren
duty. Than the 3450rpm a two pole AC induction motor
develops from 60Hz power.
That again just about anything is possible.

.....and IF 'universal motor', it would run on DC & likely would list AC/DC on tag......don't you think?

buickanddeere · Jul 24, 2011

Likely because most applications lack a 240V DC
source. Although for an emergency siren. Having a
battery supply and a motor that runs equally well
on AC or DC is an advantage.
The AC universal brush type motor in lawn
mowers, vacuum cleaners, kitchen appliances, shop
tools etc. They run just fine on AC or DC. Unless
they have a electronic variable speed trigger
control. Subway traction motors are series motors
as well and will operate on AC or DC.
Persons not in the electrical field usually are
not aware of the AC universal motor.

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