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Ungrounded outlets

S

Stan in Oly, WA

Well-known Member
I have a few ungrounded outlets along one wall of my house where it would be extraordinarily difficult to run new wire to them from the crawl space and impossible from above (they're under picture windows). Opening a channel in the wall seems like the only option, but I can't take the time to do that right now. One of the outlets is damaged and the others have been painted over and are ugly. Are there replacement ungrounded outlets for this situation? Is there some other way to deal with the problem, like replacing the outlets with GFCI outlets?

Thanks, Stan
 
Replacing with GFCI is your best alternative. You just need to replace the first one with a GFCI and wire the rest to the output connections on the GFCI.
 
I was able to bore a small hole in the plate and run a single 12 Gauge THHN wire into each box for a ground.
 
You could use that flat metal pipe and run it on the outside of the wall. Can"t remember right off what they call it. It kind of looks like trim board. Any electrical supply store should have it. Looks like electrical conduit pipe, except it is kind of square and made for those situations where you can"t get behind the wall. Seems like it comes in different colors or you can paint it to match the wall.
 
(quoted from post at 17:58:44 01/02/12) You could use that flat metal pipe and run it on the outside of the wall. Can"t remember right off what they call it. It kind of looks like trim board. Any electrical supply store should have it. Looks like electrical conduit pipe, except it is kind of square and made for those situations where you can"t get behind the wall. Seems like it comes in different colors or you can paint it to match the wall.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to wire mold?
 
Just about any store that sells elec supplies will have ungrounded duplex outlets. Even Home Depot.

$2 each and you're all set.

I realize there's no inspector involved here, so much is moot. But if there was . . . replacing a bad ungrounded outlet with new ungrounded outlet is fine. Installing a three-prong GFIC with no ground wire attached IS a violation.

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=ungroundedoutlet.jpg" target="_blank">
ungroundedoutlet.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket
</a>
 
Stan,

You can definitely get two wire outlets to replace the ones that look bad, and then install GFCI circuit breakers in your distribution panel for the circuit (or circuits) that the two wire outlets are on. At that point, you should have good, GFCI protection on those outlets without having to run any wires.

Okay, real electricians, fire away if I'm wrong about this.

Tom in TN
 
Stan,

May I impart the " look at code in your area" here...?

Perhaps you should install a gfci outlet, marked "no equiment ground"; at the first outlet, and thence thereafter, being protected from a ground fault, but not having to rip out existing wallboards.

Look into this matter, there's plent of info available, as well as expertise, locally.

D
 
Part of the problem is the framing of the house on the foundation at that particular wall. The floor joists run parallel to the wall in question and, if I remember correctly, the last joist overlaps the concrete foundation by a quarter of an inch or so. The bottom of the wall I need to drill into is on the far side of that joist.

The real problem, though, is that it's about a 75' low crawl to where the work needs to be done which makes it quite a chore to get the tools to the location, and ever since I insulated the floors with batts of fiberglass, I can't be in the crawlspace without a full face respirator. It's just not fun anymore.

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 00:17:10 01/03/12) You know the fault ground and the common are grounded to the same place in your breaker box. When I wire one like you have I run a short wire from the common to the fault ground. I would prefer the third wire but sometimes you have to make do.
Click to expand...
would rather leave it connected to nothing than that! Remember that in a home 98% ? of devices plugged into an outlet will be two prong and totally enclosed in plastic anyway. It was fine for the first 100 years.
 
You know the fault ground and the common are grounded to the same place in your breaker box. When I wire one like you have I run a short wire from the common to the fault ground. I would prefer the third wire but sometimes you have to make do.
 
Stan ,

A three prong outlet will fit in the box nicely and the covers will fit too.The covers need to be for a three pronged plug as well. You just won't be able to hook up the ground . You also need a ground for the GFCI's.

Whizkid
 
Much depends on what the local electrical code is. Different states - and different cities within those states use their own variations of the NEC. They use different years, and often add their own extra rules. New York City is a prime example.

In regard to the NEC 406.3 that you cited. It is a "recommendation" that requires an ungrounded outlet of any sort with three prongs has to be overtly marked "no equipment ground." So, yeah - depending on where the person lives - the locally enforced code would allow as long at the "no equipment ground" disclaimer was on every duplex.

It also allows simple replacement of a bad two-prong duplex - with a new two-prong duplex.
 
GFCIs duplexes work as designed with no ground wire attached. They sense a differential between the hot and neutral and trip when an inbalance is sensed. Usually 5 ma.
 
I discovered that trick many years ago and thought it was pretty clever until the husband of my wife's good friend embarrassed me about it in front of other friends by suggesting that I was doing it to trick people. Aside from that, it's a way of turning a minor inconvenience into a clear code violation and a way to let the insurance comnpany off the hook if there's a fire from any cause.

Stan
 
Okay Stan heres the deal, Ive been retired as an electrical distribution design engineer for years and am rusty on the latest NEC but heres my best advice:

1) If you dont have a 3 wire 120 VAC branch circuit (Hot, Neutral GrounDED Conductor, Equipment GroundING conductor) available YES you can stll install a two prong non grounded duplex outlet and it will "work"

2) HOWEVER your local authority (if any exists in your area) may or may not approve of such (depends on them and what NEC they may or may not adopt) and its what they (and your insurance coverage??) say that matters NOT ANY OF US HERE (although it will still work)

3) CAUTION since you dont have the third safety equipment GroundING conductor wire available to return fault current, FOR INCREASED SAFETY I HAVE TO IN GOOD FAITH RECOMMEND YOU USE A GFCI RECEPTACLE. If it senses an imbalance in current flow of around 5 ma i.e. current thats flowing out the hot but NOT being returend via the Neutral, IT WILL OPEN AND THAT CAN SAve your life.

4) NOTE the GFCI (at least older ones I'm familiar with, they may have since changed so no warranty) measures Hot and Neutral current flow and isnt necessarily concerned with equipment ground conductor current. Both Hot and Neutral pass through a Torroidal Coil so if currents are the same no voltage is induced and it doesnt trip HOWEVER if theres an imbalance (current out hot not being returned via the neutral) of around 5 MA it trips as that induces a voltage in the coil.

5) NOTE the push to test feature MAY NOT WORK in some of the older GFCI's Im familiar with if theres no equipment GroundING concuctor since its where the test function routes the imbalanced current. THAT MAY NOT BE TRU ON ALL OR MORE MODERN GFCI SO DONT ANYONE HAVE A CALF NOW

60 CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION

NEVER NEVER NEVER mix n match Neutral GrounDED Conductor with the safety Equipment GroundING Conductors in branch circuits and downstream from the main panel THAT CAN CRERAT A HAZARD

Sorry I cant explin here in a sentence what takes books to describe so just trust me DONT MIX N MATCH NEUTRAL AND EQUIPMENT GROUND DOWNSTREAM FROM THEMAIN PANEL

John T Too long retired Electrical Engineer so NO Warranty consult with your local authority versus what any of us say to do
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the purpose of a fault ground is so if an appliance has a stray hot wire touching the casing the electricity goes to the ground instead of a person touching it. Running a wire from the fault ground to the common would not add to or retard any flammability issue. The two wire system would not pass code on new construction but is grandfathered in on existing structures. Half the houses I work on have the two wire system and have been green tagged by building inspectors.
 
The purpose of the Equipment GroundING conductor is to serve as a low resistacne dedicated current return for FAULT CURRENT ONLY. If a hot wire comes in contact with an appliances metallic case which is bonded to the Equipment GroundING Conductor fault current flows back to the panel so the breaKER CAN TRIP deenergizing the circuit to save the life of the person who might have touched the hot appliance case. Its not to carry current to mother earth ground its to carry fault current back to the panel so the breaker trips out.

Only at the main panel is the Neutral Buss bonded to the Equipment Ground Buss. The Neutral is bonded to mother earth ground at the transformer and again at the service entrance

Hope this helps

John T long retired EE and rusty on latest NEC
 
Connecting the equipment grounding terminal(s) to the Neutral (grounded circuit conductor) at any point after the main panel is extremely dangerous and could result, under some circumstances, in electrocution. Forbidden by every code.
 
Stan, the NEC (2011) Article is 406.4(D)(2). Particularly (b) of that section. Often electrical supply houses will have a copy on the counter or perhaps at your public library. One GFCI receptacle can feed several regular receptacles if connected properly, part (c).
 
EXACTLY, Ive tried to preach that and educate lay persons for years about that but they SMARTER THEN THE NEC PROFESSIONALS AND ELECTRICIANS AND ENGINNERS say its fine because they take you to their panel and show where theyre all bonded together grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Guess they will have to die dumb I just cant help them but hey I still try

John T
 
I just ran into a problem which no answers in writing seemed to exist. I was required by the current code in NY (NEC 2008) to install X amount of GFCIs in a non-grid-power house. Even though all AC is from twin inverters powered by a battery bank and/or solar panels - hard wired smoke detectors and GFCIs are required.

Problem is - many GFCIs will not work properly on these inverters produced AC current. They buzz all the time something awful. Mod-wave or sine-wave. I spoke with the electrical inspector about it and he was considering the idea of passing me without them. That was IF I tried many GFCIs first. I tried two types of panel GFCI breakers (Square D QO and Homeline). No good. Then we tried near a dozen different types and brands of GFIC duplexes. Finally found two types that worked fine with no buzz. Some old Levingtons spec-grade I probably bought 10-15 years ago, and some new Cooper hospital-grade duplexs. It was a total crap-shoot. Funny that new Levingtons from years back work fine, but I tried four different versions of new ones that will not work.

Had sort of the same problem with smoke detectors. Ends up NONE would work with mod-wave inverters but did work with a sine-wave inverter. 10 years ago many detectors worked with either. So - obviously something has changed in the electronics. To pass inspection I had to dedicate a new sine-wave inverter to run the smoke detectors.
 
I install a dedicated ground where ever possible but in this situation there is only the hot wire and the common. It would be better to have the ground tied to the common rather than not have anything. I have touched one of these outlets that had the two wire with a stainless cover and gotten shocked. If it had been grounded to the common the electricity would have channeled back to the breaker box and tripped the breaker.
 
Interesting. If I was an inspector, I would consider that you or some future owner might want to go back on grid power. Inverter technology is certainly capable of delivering power of the quality you need. But inverters of that quality large enough for your purpose might not be affordable.
 
Id agree DEFINITELY the electronics in inverters has changed especially the last 5 years, the latest (prob most expensive) are about as pure a sine wave as that produced by rotating alternators. Same Im sure for GFCI, the old ones were torroid coils and relays of sort (self test wouldnt work without the safety ground path) while Id guess the new are pure electronic and might not know what to do except BUZZ if alls not exactly what the utility is sending out.

Some complain about the cost but I think the new arc fault protectors can save lives and fires maybe even moreso the GFCI when a cheap extension cord starts arcing and burning (makes big time heat) but theres not enough current to trip a thermal magnetic circuit breaker.


Last week at the Bus Nuts meet I attended seminars on solar power and inverters etc and they (sales type people) knew their stuff but were lacking as far as pure engineering concepts were concerned. They insisted a circuit breaker wouldnt trip if not on the hot line side (said current going wrong way) and when I tried politely to explain it was ALTERNATING CURRENT changing direction 60 x per second they didnt like me anymore lol


The dude who gave a semninar on Lithium Ion batteries for RV storage was sharp but to me the initial cost layout and yet unproven technology (his system was several thousand) makes me want to wait a few to several years. However when cost comparisons were made for cost versus life cycles they looked okay iffffffff they actually live that long???????? The charging and monitoring and controls are expensive cuz if they arent maintained and charged properly they can be toast like instantly grrrrrrrr

As always, fun sparky chattin with ya

John T
 
FOR SURE I AGREE A DEDICATED (for fault current ONLY) EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR IS BEST

Okay just as long as you understand (it appears you do) there can be potential hazards involved (plus a major code violation) if you start tying the equipment GroundING Conductor to the Neutral GrounDED conductor at places other then and downstream from the main service entrance panel. THATS SO VERY VERY WICKED LOL

Im NOT saying things dont work and theres no way Im gonna explain the entire engineering concepts and reasons why here

All are free to wire as they please IM ONLY ASKING DO IT AS I JUST SAID AS IT MAY SAVE THEIR OR A FAMILY MEMBERS LIFE

And please dont take my word for it (Im long retired from engineering), ask any professional electrician or NEC experts or authors or engineers if its okay and see what they say.

Again, Im NOT here to fight or argue and respect you and any persons opinion and you are free to do as you please

God Bless you and keep safe and consult a trained professional versus things posted here is my best advice in all good faith.

John T
 
Yes, inverters that replicate perfect grid power are available - but are very expensive. I have two powering the grid-tie system on my house and shop. Outback inverters like I have at home that are certified OK by the power companies cost a small fortune. Same with Xantrex, Beacon, Fronius, SMA Sunny Boy, etc.

A 3000 watt power-company certified inverter can cost $1500- $3000.

A non-certified 3000 watt sine-wave inverter can be had for $300.

A mod-wave 3000 watt inverter can be bought for $175.

So - it's a matter of what a person needs. On a non-grid home there is no need for a perfect round-curve sine-wave inverter. The cheaper stepped sine-wave inverters work great on probably 99.9% of all that's needed.

Now the mod-wave inverters are a different story. They work fine on many things - but do not on some electric motors, battery chargers, etc.
Oddly though, they tend to be the most efficient when the DO work.
 
(quoted from post at 17:29:56 01/03/12) I install a dedicated ground where ever possible but in this situation there is only the hot wire and the common. It would be better to have the ground tied to the common rather than not have anything. I have touched one of these outlets that had the two wire with a stainless cover and gotten shocked. If it had been grounded to the common the electricity would have channeled back to the breaker box and tripped the breaker.
Click to expand...
tephen, I'm not interested in a debate, but want to point out the reason that I feel that safety ground tied to neutral is a bad idea. Safety ground never carries current unless there is a fault. Neutral carries all the load current. That small neutral drop is always going to be there, to give someone a tingle...startle but usually no real harm done. HOWEVER, if &amp; when due to whatever circumstances, the neutral wire/connection fails (overloads, corrosion, some up stream maintenance, etc, etc.....then your neutral-to-ground jumpered arrangement suddenly puts your 'made-up safety ground' &amp; metal cover plate at 120 volts.
May not happen often, but once &amp; someone may be dead. Whereas with no safety ground at all, he/she lives.
 
Youre on the right track JMOR. Think about it, if the safety equipment GroundING conductor is tied to the Neutral downstream of the main panel and rememebr the groundiNG conductor is tied to an appliances outer metal frame THEN YOU HAVE ENERGIZED THE METAL FRAME OF THAT AND OTHER APPLIANCES OUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Then if you touch that live energized metal frame your body is creating a paralell current path ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

YOU ARE RIGHT you should NEVER tie the grounding conductor to the live neutral current carrier downstream of the main panel

Im glad you get this many do NOT and that could get them killed

John T
 
(quoted from post at 21:17:00 01/03/12) Youre on the right track JMOR. Think about it, if the safety equipment GroundING conductor is tied to the Neutral downstream of the main panel and rememebr the groundiNG conductor is tied to an appliances outer metal frame THEN YOU HAVE ENERGIZED THE METAL FRAME OF THAT AND OTHER APPLIANCES OUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Then if you touch that live energized metal frame your body is creating a paralell current path ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

YOU ARE RIGHT you should NEVER tie the grounding conductor to the live neutral current carrier downstream of the main panel

Im glad you get this many do NOT and that could get them killed

John T
Click to expand...
ike I think you said earlier, " so many see that grounded and grounding conductors are common at some point", so why does it matter? BUT, it is difficult for most (apparently) to visualize the possibilities. The NEC just sets out the code. Somewhere there ought to be the reasons, but??????????
 
Steph

How is it you think a current carrying conductor is something safe to connect your equipment chassis and therefore your body to?
You seem to be unfamiliar with electrical theory and certain that you are right and the experts are wrong.
 
That not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting combining the neutral and fault ground where it is not possible to have a dedicated line. So far nobody has given any reason not to do this. As stated previously I went to remove a stainless outlet cover that had a hot wire touching the metal box. If the outlet was grounded to the neutral the breaker would have tripped when the person that did this turned the electricity back on. The same would be true if someone would plug a defective appliance into it that had a stray hot wire.
 
Buick man is right:

You state: So far nobody has given any reason not to do this

Okay let me give you one: If you connect the Neutral to the Equipment GroundING conductor downstream of the main panel and as typical the Grounding Conductor is connected to an appliances outer metal case/frame THEN YOU HAVE ENERGIZED THE CASE AND TURNED IT INTO A HOT LIVE CURRENT CONDUCTOR....And if you touch the appliance, then your heart is a paralell current path

SO AGAIN WITH ALL DUE RESPECT YOURE FREE TO DO THAT (and risk your or your familys life) IF YOU LIKE AND ALL ARE WELCOME TO THEIR OWN OPINIONS BUT NOTTTTTTTTTTTT THEIR OWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS

If you dont believe the Buick man or any of the professional trained electricians here or any of the engineerehere or the experts who write teh NEC thats your right (but that dont make your choice more correct then the experts remember)

SO DO AS YOU LIKE BUT I BEG YOU PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONT CONNECT THE NEUTRAL TO THEEQUIPMENT GROUND ANYPLACE DOWNSTREM OF THE MAIN PANEL EVEN IF NO ONE HERE CAN ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ITS BETTER TO BE SAFE THEN SORRY REGARDINGYOUR FAMILYS LIFE IN MY OPINION

God Bless you, keep safe, consult with true professionals and experts before you create a safety hazard WHY RISK A LIFE JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THE EXPERTS ARENT CORRECT??????

John T LOng retired electrical distribution design engineer and rusty on the NEC but believe in all my heart the above is correct and can save your life!!!!!
 
How are these for questions? Why is the neutral insulated and the ground bare? how is that you have thought of something that 10,000's of thousands engineers, inspectors and electricians have not ?
 
Could it be that you are considering only the two situations you have described above (hot wire touching the metal box, and defective appliance with stray hot wire) without taking into account the situation that is created when a correctly functioning appliance with a three pronged plug is plugged into an outlet in which the ground and neutral have been connected? This is the situation which makes the ground wire, and everything in that circuit which is grounded, part of the current carrying path.

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 15:35:36 01/04/12) Could it be that you are considering only the two situations you have described above (hot wire touching the metal box, and defective appliance with stray hot wire) without taking into account the situation that is created when a correctly functioning appliance with a three pronged plug is plugged into an outlet in which the ground and neutral have been connected? This is the situation which makes the ground wire, and everything in that circuit which is grounded, part of the current carrying path.

Stan
Click to expand...
ooks like you don't have enough of the basics to recognize the dangers of an energized current carrying conductor such as neutral. Back up a few steps and look at the big picture. Again why is the neutral insulated and the ground bare if they are the same? Is the hot water tap in the shower the same as the livestock float in the barn? They must be as they are connected together.
 
Well I was willing to give it a test so I tried it on several machines in my shop. Either way the motors had less than 3 volts on the case. Actually all but one were identical. The one that showed less voltage was one with the neutral for the fault ground that had .3 volts when it started with 1.6 volts. Most of the motors in my shop are double insulated so I'm going to have to find something else to test on.
 
The voltage was there whether the machine was properly wired or not. Each machine was tested both ways. These motors are more than 40 years old and the defect is in the motor, not how they are wired.
 
(quoted from post at 16:48:00 01/04/12) The voltage was there whether the machine was properly wired or not. Each machine was tested both ways. These motors are more than 40 years old and the defect is in the motor, not how they are wired.
Click to expand...
xactly where is that voltage coming from and what does it indicate ? Again why is the neutral insulated and the ground is bare? Why and how can engineers, inspectors and electricians see a problem and you can't. What is your inhibition preventing you from accepting advice from so many experts in the field?
 
I question everything I work with. Right now I would like to know why 5 out of 6 motors in my shop have slight voltage on the cases when running. Anyway I have never said I wired all outlets using the neutral for a ground. If there is any possible way my wiring will meet any building code. I've just had a couple of occasions where I was working on an old house with old wiring and could not replace the old wire. On these couple of occasions I coupled the neutral with the ground. I believe its better to have this improvised ground than no ground. I started this when I was remodeling a house where the homeowner hired a licensed electrician. This guy was putting in new wiring where he was not attaching the ground wire to the outlets. Then there was a broken outlet that had the old wire. He told the homeowner that the outlet couldn't be repaired because the wire there was not up to code and had to pull new wire. Even though he wasn't using the ground he was trying to sell it. It would have cost more than a thousand dollars to do this because a stone veneer would have to be taken down to pull a new wire. The homeowner fired this guy and asked me to finish the wiring. He also asked me to come up with some way to ground the outlet and coupling it with the neutral was the only way.

Since you guys have been fighting me on this I thought there might be something to it so I've started testing this to see if I need to go back and undo those outlets I've done. I have more testing to do but so far I can't see that there is any difference between the dedicated ground and coupling it with neutral.
 
Why do all the wise and experienced folk who write the NEC forbids connecting neutrals to chassis? Hint it's not a nation wide conspiracy of corupt lazy &amp; incompetent contractors paying off the NEC writers.
 
(quoted from post at 01:03:31 01/05/12) I question everything I work with. Right now I would like to know why 5 out of 6 motors in my shop have slight voltage on the cases when running. Anyway I have never said I wired all outlets using the neutral for a ground. If there is any possible way my wiring will meet any building code. I've just had a couple of occasions where I was working on an old house with old wiring and could not replace the old wire. On these couple of occasions I coupled the neutral with the ground. I believe its better to have this improvised ground than no ground. I started this when I was remodeling a house where the homeowner hired a licensed electrician. This guy was putting in new wiring where he was not attaching the ground wire to the outlets. Then there was a broken outlet that had the old wire. He told the homeowner that the outlet couldn't be repaired because the wire there was not up to code and had to pull new wire. Even though he wasn't using the ground he was trying to sell it. It would have cost more than a thousand dollars to do this because a stone veneer would have to be taken down to pull a new wire. The homeowner fired this guy and asked me to finish the wiring. He also asked me to come up with some way to ground the outlet and coupling it with the neutral was the only way.

Since you guys have been fighting me on this I thought there might be something to it so I've started testing this to see if I need to go back and undo those outlets I've done. I have more testing to do but so far I can't see that there is any difference between the dedicated ground and coupling it with neutral.
Click to expand...
tephen, if you understand the attached diagram &amp; still fail to see the danger in your "looping neutral to safety ground" scheme, then nothing short of killing someone will convince you.
Hoping this helps.
grounding_bad_bad.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 12:08:12 01/05/12)
(quoted from post at 01:03:31 01/05/12) I question everything I work with. Right now I would like to know why 5 out of 6 motors in my shop have slight voltage on the cases when running. Anyway I have never said I wired all outlets using the neutral for a ground. If there is any possible way my wiring will meet any building code. I've just had a couple of occasions where I was working on an old house with old wiring and could not replace the old wire. On these couple of occasions I coupled the neutral with the ground. I believe its better to have this improvised ground than no ground. I started this when I was remodeling a house where the homeowner hired a licensed electrician. This guy was putting in new wiring where he was not attaching the ground wire to the outlets. Then there was a broken outlet that had the old wire. He told the homeowner that the outlet couldn't be repaired because the wire there was not up to code and had to pull new wire. Even though he wasn't using the ground he was trying to sell it. It would have cost more than a thousand dollars to do this because a stone veneer would have to be taken down to pull a new wire. The homeowner fired this guy and asked me to finish the wiring. He also asked me to come up with some way to ground the outlet and coupling it with the neutral was the only way.

Since you guys have been fighting me on this I thought there might be something to it so I've started testing this to see if I need to go back and undo those outlets I've done. I have more testing to do but so far I can't see that there is any difference between the dedicated ground and coupling it with neutral.
Click to expand...
tephen, if you understand the attached diagram &amp; still fail to see the danger in your "looping neutral to safety ground" scheme, then nothing short of killing someone will convince you.
Hoping this helps.
grounding_bad_bad.jpg
Click to expand...
grounding_bad_bad2.jpg
 
OK I will buy that under those conditions a person could get shocked if an appliance had a short. But then if the neutral was interupted the outlet would be dead and they would quit using it until the fault was repaired. The alternative is to not have the appliance grounded at all. Under those conditions a person could certainly get shocked. Then there is what I did that if the wiring was intact would give a person some level of protection. I didn't like it but I still think it's better than nothing.
 
(quoted from post at 19:51:34 01/05/12) OK I will buy that under those conditions a person could get shocked if an appliance had a short. But then if the neutral was interupted the outlet would be dead and they would quit using it until the fault was repaired. The alternative is to not have the appliance grounded at all. Under those conditions a person could certainly get shocked. Then there is what I did that if the wiring was intact would give a person some level of protection. I didn't like it but I still think it's better than nothing.
Click to expand...

NO! You still don't understand. "OK I will buy that under those conditions a person could get shocked if an appliance had a short." In the situation diagramed, there is no appliance 'short' or malfunction at all. Yet the appliance case is at line voltage.

Again, no. "But then if the neutral was interupted the outlet would be dead and they would quit using it until the fault was repaired." The outlet would NOT be 'dead'. In fact all three sockets would be hot at 120 volts!
Finally, a YES, in that as soon as the lady touched the washing machine cabinet and the dryer cabinet or maybe a wet floor, she would "quit using it".....forever!

Your horse is dead, my man. Stop beating him.
 
LMOR

Thank you for the drawing, the explanation and
your patience. All are top notch. You helped
educate dozens to hundreds of other folk on how
not to kill or main family, friends, strangers or
themselves.

The poor dude has that same teddy26food magnet
motor problem.
They can not handle the fact that they are wrong
about a topic that they truly do not understand.
They will go to any length of denial rather than
change their minds.
They seem certain that they can be the only
people right in the face of a great conspiracy
against them.
You should hear some of the stories my sister
the RN can tell about denial. She has had women
give birth and within seconds deny the baby is
thier's or it came from them.
 
OK I was being pestered to get off the internet when I wrote that and didn't get a chance to really think about it until I hit the submit button. I then realized the electricity would channel back through the ground to the appliance case. When I said the outlet would be dead, I didn't mean no electricity would be there, I meant nothing plugged into the outlet would work without the neutral.

This scenario does make for a much better argument. On the other hand if the neutral is not lost my setup provided a grounded outlet without tearing down the house to do it. Fortunately I was shocked on the outlet I based my story on. It was 12" from the floor with a stainless cover and the people had a toddler crawling around the house. They didn't know the outlet was broken until I went to take the cover off to paint the wall.
 
(quoted from post at 23:58:12 01/05/12) LMOR

Thank you for the drawing, the explanation and
your patience. All are top notch. You helped
educate dozens to hundreds of other folk on how
not to kill or main family, friends, strangers or
themselves.

The poor dude has that same teddy26food magnet
motor problem.
They can not handle the fact that they are wrong
about a topic that they truly do not understand.
They will go to any length of denial rather than
change their minds.
They seem certain that they can be the only
people right in the face of a great conspiracy
against them.
You should hear some of the stories my sister
the RN can tell about denial. She has had women
give birth and within seconds deny the baby is
thier's or it came from them.
Click to expand...
uickand deere, thanks. I try.
 
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