Briggs and Stratton Vanguard ran with no oil

I know that this is going to be long, but I have to explain it in detail under the circumstances , but I have a friend of mine who works on small engines ( lawnmowers , etc. ) professionally at his house and during the day at a farm store in his county's county seat. Back earlier in the spring, he worked on a lawnmower at his public job and changed the oil and filter and a few other minor things on a Briggs and Stratton Vanguard motor app. ,I guess , 15 - 20 hp. He started it and ran it for at least 10 minutes and drove it around the shop / store and drove it on the trailer and took it home , unloaded it and parked it beside the persons garage . She later came by the shop wanting a clutch electrical switch ( pto ) as the mower would not start. He told her that that probably would not fix it and later she came by saying he was right . Well now ,the lady is suing him saying that she mowed with the mower about 1 hour and a half and it quit running and her son checked the oil and said that there wasn't any oil in the motor . Her claim is that he forgot to put oil in the motor and he says he did. Her neighbors even told him that she came to them wanting oil. Well , our question is this - How long can this engine
( or any small engine like the above mentioned and air cooled) last under a normal load
( meaning mowing grass and running the transmission at full throttle ) on a normal hot summer day about 85 - 95 degrees f.. She said that the person she bought it from had just put a new engine on it , too , if that helps any ,and my friend said that it did look nice . He has been doing this for at least 10+ years and I've watched him change oil plenty of times and never forget to put more back in . So guys, as I stated above, would this motor last 1.5 hours under normal use WITHOUT ANY OIL IN IT AND RUNNING AT FULL THROTTLE ? We say no ,but it all depends on how knowledgable the judge is about motors. What do you guys think - does she sound legitmate or just wanting a new motor ? Do any of you know where I can find any info. on this as my friend was wanting some info . on it . Please tell us what you thing about it and how long the motor would have lasted in your opinion . I , personally believe that it wouldn't last no more than 5 - 10 minutes tops. We want a lot of opinions on this so I am going to post it on a few more forms on this site to make sure that everyone see it. Thank you for all and any help.

Whizkidkyus

I have seen water cooled engines last less than a minute without oil. They run then they just lock up. Now if they were running something like amsoil maybe it will last 5-10min. (see post in ford forum of tractor running 1/4 mile without oil.

She'll have to PROVE her case, and I really don't see her doing it. Just don't miss the court date as she'll then win by default, and be prepared to have his name trashed around town for as long as she lives. I think most here would agree with Tim, less than a minute for any engine without oil.

The only way to truely prove thats what happened is send off the engine components to an ISO approved testing shop that can x-ray and mic every part of the engine to come up with the failure. It will cost a lot more than the price of a new engine to get this done. I used to know the name of a shop that did this, performance engine builders would send their blown up engines to them to get stress tests done, and a long detailed report would come back.

I know first hand a B&S engine will run at least 45 minuits without oil. Would like to blame it on the wife but can't.

You need to consider the known facts:

1. The tractor was running when the customer brought it in, and running when it left the shop. You don't say if your friend noted anything wrong with the engine, so we'll assume that it appeared to be running OK and didn't show signs of excessive oil consumption.

2. Your friend changed the oil, and presumably refilled the oil.

3. After almost two hours of operation the engine quit and was discovered to be out of oil.

So the question is: Where did the oil go? Possibilities:

1. The engine oil was not refilled.

2. The engine oil was only partially refilled. (If this engine has a filter and the oil level wasn't rechecked after running, for example.)

3. The oil drained out through a leak, for example the drain plug wasn't tight or the oil filter was loose.

4. The oil was used up due to excessive oil consumption.

5. The customer deliberately drained out the oil.

Scenarios 4 and 5 seem very unlikely. Scenarios 1, 2 and 3 would all put your friend at fault.

Biggest question is where did the oil go if he did fill it. Her asking neighbors for oil is no sort of indicator that he originally filled it. In fact, it's rather indicative that he did not.

Accidents do happen, and people do make mistakes.

I had a new Grasshopper, still under warrantee, so I had the dealer give it his yearly service, which included oil change, filters, blade sharpening, adjustments, etc. He picked it up and returned it to my house. I fired it up and began mowing, circling around the house. Second lap I noticed what appeared to be a streak of oil on the sidewalk. I'm a little thick headed and it didn't dawn on me. Third lap I noticed two streaks and I killed the engine. The filter was not even finger tight on the engine. I tightened it up and it took about a third of a quart to top off the oil.

If I had not crossed that sidewalk twice, I wouldn't have known the filter was loose and it would have pumped it down to - what level? I think the Kohler engine has a low oil shutoff switch, but I wouldn't want to test it like that.

I called the dealer and talked it over with him. He was very concerned and apologetic. I have to wonder what his reaction would have been if the engine was ruined.

I've been in his shop - the guy can't finish anything for the phone ringing off the hook.

The mower's out of warrantee and I do my own service on it now.

Paul

I put new rings in a lawnmower one time,had it running for a while setting the carb,moving it,putting new belts on and trying it out.Then started mowing and got 3/4 the way around the yard and threw a rod through the side of the block.It leaked all the oil out of a gasket that didnt seal where the engine bolted together and it was nearly dark and I didnt see the leak.

Isn't there a low-oil level shutdown???? No oil, it won't even fire. Honda's have them anyway.

I'm quite sure it's not going to run for 1.5 hours with no oil at load either. Might run for quite a while with no load, but working it.... more heat. I don't think so.

Rod

1.5 hours full power and no oil? Won"t last that long, used to work short while at small engine shop. If it took an hour to lose the oil to critical level then the last 1/2 hour running would still probably result in seized rod and hole in block or seized piston in cylinder- both obvious results and easy to see with head off. How the oil got lost is ?? If this is vertical shaft, maybe bottom seal?. Need full engine and application number but most large briggs-and others- since mid 1990s have low oil pressure shutdown sensors if they have a oil filter. The cheapest splash lube, no filter engines don"t but may have a oil level sensor by fill tube. Broken breather assemblies and required emmissions tubing can hide the excess oil burning, the pulse fuel pump assemblies on breather area can also have bad diaphrams happen- both problems can be seen when checking breather area. Engine seems to have had oil in it to start- may have run out for some reason to be determined after 1.25 hours before died. Sensors are sometimes disconnected or shorted by users who don"t check why engine is not starting- bypass saftey instead of fixing problem the safety is meant to warn of- you note customer was complaining of not starting and had some component replaced or fixed, maybe bypassed low oil sensor? The engine needs a tear down to check a couple critical components and sensor test done. A blown fuse replaced with a .22 rimfire cartridge has made the rounds for a couple years, Darwin awards have similar instances. RN

Well you and she haven't provided the autopsy yet which she may need to prove her case that the shop's negligence cause the damage and what was the damage and how did the shop cause it? Quit running and no oil has multiple causes. Thrown rod, seized piston, leak, she ran over a rock and bent the crank shaft, and the list goes on and on. She may have run it 25 hours and out of oil. Is she going to bring the mower/engine to court with her? Does she have an expert witness who has examined it and can state what the cause of the damage was?

Time for a little detective work and since you asked here, you need to share it here. How long after the service call did it quit? How big is her yard and average time to mow it? How often is it mowed? Does the blade look like it hit something? Have you asked her to show you the engine so it can be inspected? Any oily places before and after the service where oil was or did leak? Was the filter and drain plug still in it? If she come in looking for a clutch switch, that implies she (or her son) has more working knowledge of engines and mowers than even I do and did they fiddle with it and cause the damage? Sounds like an old mower if it already has gone through an engine. What caused the other engine to go out? Was it replaced properly? Was there a defect in the mower engine mount or and out of balance main pulley causing some internal damage?

On the other hand, shops assume a lot of liability when they pick up, repair, and deliver mowers. They'd have to buy her a new mower or fix it if it was in a car wreck, slid off the trailer, or the shop guy ran it off the ramps during loading. That is all built into the high charge they have for that service.

Then it will depend upon the Judge. Is he one of those persons who would say that it worked before she had it repaired and not after and therefore it must be the shop? Or will he hold her feet to fire and make her prove what parts were damaged, how they were damaged, and who could or did cause it? Some small claims Judges treat those claims rather smally, and some don't. Will he require an expert witness from either or both? Can either of both afford to hire an expert witness and pay to have them appear over a few hundred dollar engine? Freight the engine to the expert one of the other posters mentioned, get his report, and then pay to fly him and other transportation costs to appear in court.

They could mediate it and agree to split the costs of replacing the engine.

Let us know more and how it goes.

Years ago my dad was changing oil in a IH cub cadet with 12 hp kohler. Drained oil and went in for lunch. It started to rain so he ran out and drove it in, maybe 30 seconds. Result: fried rod and messed up crank. Knocked so loud we had to get a short block.

What are you trying to save? Money or your friends business? If it is money fight it in court and you have a 50/50 chance of winning. If it is his business you might want to eat crow and replace the engine (with on of your choice to save money). This will settle the matter and show your friend stands behind his work. Next you need to established a check out procedure to put the responsibility on your customers once the product leaves your shop. A sign off sheet that you go over with your customers that you show them the repairs or services completed and offer them the replaced or damaged parts to take with them.

Why not ask Briggs & Stratton?

I would also check and see if that mower is equipped with a low oil cut off switch.

You should also get the mower back and see if the filter has oil in it. If the crankcase was dry there would be no oil in the filter. If there was oil in the filter it will never dry out. Take photos and have them witnessed and notarized.

Your friend is about to learn an expensive lesson about how it's never a good idea to get sued. Cost for legal fees will be far more than a brand new mower will cost unless he can represent himself.

What should YOU do before you start any engine? CHECK the OIL ! She didn"t check it, you didn"t , he didn"t a judge didn"t engine is toast too bad all IDIOTS !

Personally I can't see the engine lasting more than a few minutes before the rod would sieze. Like others have stated the majority of engines nowdays have low oil shutdown switches that unless bypassed would have prevented it from starting if no oil was in the crankcase. Too if it has a filter then there should be oil in the filter if there was oil in the engine when it was running.

How much time transpired between the mower leaving his shop and the engine locking up? Depending on how often he took out his trash he might be able to pull the empty oil containers out of the trash and show where each one went for any jobs in the shop during that time that also recieved oil changes. Too did he charge her for oil on the reciept and did she sign a reciept acknowledging that she was charged for x amount of oil.

One thing I am confused about though is where you say she asked friends/neighbors for oil. When did she ask them for it, before or after running it and the engine locking up?

If it was after then she was without a doubt a day late and dollar short on checking her oil. Even so, by checking it she showed that she knew how to check it yet failed to so so before operaton, per the operator manuals recommendation...How many manuals don't recommend that as one of the priority prestart items??? (Still it would be assumed by most that checking it wasn't necessary and that there to be put in.) One easy way to prove if this happened would be to check the filter, if it has one. If the engine was locked up then it wouldn't have turned over enough to pump oil into the filter so it would be stil be dry if the oil was added after the lockup. Now who would be responsible in this case would be debatable as they would both share some of the fault fault, he for not filling it and she for not checking it. However your friend would be better off to bite the bullet and buy an engine to settle things if for no other reason than to say "I stand behind my work when I make a mistake"....whether he believes he did or not or werher he feels he's 1% at falut or 99% at fault. Everyone knows that no one is perfect and I think he would garner more respect and keep more business by admitting a mistake and making it right than by fighting a battle where it's hard to prove who is "the most" at fault.

Now if she asked for the oil before running it and it subsequently locking up then SHE HAS NO CLAIM AGAINST YOUR FRIEND in my opinion. The fact she was looking for oil is proof positive that she checked the oil and saw it was low and knowingly ran the engine anyway or conversely saw it was low and added oil before running it and it locked up even with oil in it. Either way it wouldn't be your friends fault if she knowingly ran it without oil nor would it be his fault if it locked up with oil in it no matter who put it there.

Without being there and really knowing exactly how everything played out it's a tough one as to who should be held ultimately responsible. Too given the responsibilities that would be expected of both parties any way you look at it the blame should be shared each way in some precentage IF no oil was put in at your friends shop. I'm no lawyer by any means but over the years I've seen and heard of many people trying to scam someone/a business by doing something like this. They plead ignorance and expect you to pay for their mistake. If it was the ladies mistake and I could prove it I'd fight til he11 froze over to clear my name. Conversely if I were in business and was even remotely at fault, or even had the slightest doubt that I could be, then the thing to do would be to suck it up and own up to the mistake and make it right.

Maby they were running "SLICK 50" HA HA.
Sorry I just couldn't resist.

As stated, one of the main prestart checks to any engine is check the oil before every start or every 10 hours of running which ever comes first. Plus who does have at least a quart of oil sitting at their house?

My B&S blew up last summer after changing the oil. My dad was mowing for about an hour when this happened. When I got home from work to look at it it had oil blown all over the deck and the muffler was full of oil. It all smelled bad like burned. When I took the engine apart found the oil pump gear is made of plastic and it meshs with the metal gear on the camshaft. All of the plastic teeth were layed down and not spinning the oil pump. Lack of oil beat the piston up and It pumped oil through the top and out the exhaust and also blew oil out the bottom by the crankshaft seal. This is all I can figure anyway. But when I checked the stick it showed no oil and I know I had put oil in it. This happened on an engine that was 19 years old and not new. Just my experience.

It would be tough for the average guy to prove what really happened. The funny thing about MOST of today's cheapo lawn tractor engines...

1. They don't have low oil pressure switches - that costs money.
2. They have aluminum connecting rods with no bearings. - again, bearings cost money.
3. They really need oil, but can run for a while without it. I've seen twin cylinder Inteks run for 20 hours missing the lube holes to the rods before they popped.
4. Damaged today, fail next month... In other words, let's say that you screw up and botch the oil change and damage the engine. Let it cool down and add oil. It may run 5 minutes, it may run 5-10 hours, but eventually it will come apart. The connecting rod will actually start to melt to the crank. (Who says you can't weld aluminum to steel?). Or at this point, it may actually stretch the rod bolts. Once it cools, the rod bolts are loose. Ever see rod bolts laying in the pan and just assume that they weren't torqued properly from the factory? Not if the rod started melting.
5. Parts inside are made of plastic. Plastic tends to change color under normal use and gets a lot darker if it gets REALLY hot (like from running a long time low on oil).

So, bottom line, you could look at the pieces and parts of the engine, and be able to say with 75/25 confidence that you know what happened, but it would be difficult to determine if the damage was before or after your friend touched it. If the oil change was botched, then more than likely, the aluminum stuck to the crank would be pretty light in color and the rods would still look normal (they discolor when the oil burns to them). If there's no oil there, nothing to discolor.

If the damage was already done before she brought it in, then you would see the rods would be dark on the crank end, and normally you'd see some darkness to the aluminum that's stuck to the crank.