Author	[Modern View]
equeen 11-07-2012 16:50:38 209.102.248.236 Report to Moderator	I'm back again with the 52 Ford 8N issue. A "mechanic" has the tractor but he's had no better luck than I have. It started and ran well - once for about 15 minutes for him (as it has done for me), then hasn't started again. Fire to plugs - he says fine blue fire. Compression around 100 on each cyl. Removed exhaust pipe, then manifold to check for obstruction - none. Valves needed some adjustment - done. They go up and down. Carb rebuilt - and tried pouring bit of gas in each cyl. No ignition. Checked distr timing against marks on flywheel and watched rotor turn. What are we missing? Apparently something that allows ignition at times and no ignition at times - mostly no ignition. Thanks for any and all ideas. I'm tired of "trying" this and that. And I'm tired of hearing about the "mechanic" "trying" this and that. Next "trying" plan is to remove head and "look at valves". Why???? [Reply]   [No Email]
equeen 11-12-2012 12:20:10 209.102.248.236 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Thanks to everyone for ideas and learning experience. Tractor starts and runs fine. Time and time again. Brother also now has working lights on tractor - first time in about 35 years. He's a happy camper. Cause of his problems as determined and corrected thus far: 1) Ignition switch was erratic, 2) bad feed-thru on primary at side of distributor. All advice was welcomed; but perhaps best advice was to hot wire the thing. By pulling power to the coil directly from battery cable at the solenoid I was able to isolate, identify and correct that part of the problem. Then the next problem was isolated, identified and solved rather quickly.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 11-12-2012 10:59:20 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I should have specified that you have battery voltage at the coil, not a lesser amount. However even with lesser voltage, you should still see the voltage change on the distributor side when the points open and close. Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I doubt it. The stud being grounded would have by passed the points so they would have had no current flow through them. Disconnecting the condenser is an easy place to start. Sometimes the little pigtail wire touches metal where it shouldn't. Occasionally a condenser can short and ground out the points as well. Disconnecting it should isolate either problem.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Kenster 11-12-2012 10:14:37 166.147.123.154 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Eriklane, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Thanks, JMOR. I can do almost anything on my tractor with shop manual and the right parts but electrical issues tend to kick my heinie. The rule "tight and bright" helps a lot, though! Always trying to learn a little more. I'll see if I can find a part number on my coil and verify what it is.   [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 11-12-2012 10:03:38 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Self-Insured...John,PA, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeThe first rule is ...if it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially after it has been fine for 6 years......... IF you really have a true 12v coil, which requires no resistor, it will have a primary winding resistance of about 3 Ohms, some as high as 4, which by design limits point current to about 4 amperes, which is a safe operating current for thew points, so no resistor required. Just because a coil is sold for a 12v application (for example a 1971 Ford PU) does not mean that it is a "true 12v" coil. The Ford PU is a 12v system, but the coil has about 1.3 Ohms resistance, which if used without an external resistor would produce about 10 amperes through your tractors points, leading to a very short lifetime! The PU has a resistor built into the wiring harness with a special high resistance wire & high temperature insulation and it has the current switched by a transistor, not points. Hopefully, you can see why emphasis is placed on the words, "true 12 volt". It would be a lot more useful to use words such as a "1.3 Ohm coil", a "3.2 Ohm coil", or a "a 0.47Ohm coil", etc. than to say a "12 volt coil", because with the simple 12v coil description, you really don't know what you have in your hand. Some will have additional information, such as "use with external resistor", or "no external resistor required", but not all manufacturers are so good as to include this kind of marking on their coils. Hope educational for you.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Kenster 11-12-2012 09:42:20 166.147.123.154 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Plane Bart, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see JMOR, could you elaborate? I have a 12V system with 12V coil. Should I have a resister? I've had no problems with points in the six and a half years I've owned the tractor.   [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 11-12-2012 09:16:59 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to tn8n, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeNot necessarily........it depends on what coil you have installed.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Kenster 11-09-2012 14:12:48 166.147.123.151 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to soundguy, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Is this 'resister' thing superfluous with a 12 volt system? I've noticed that block on the firewall but there is nothing connected to it.   [Reply]  [No Email]
oldcase 11-12-2012 09:00:48 166.147.89.154 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Kenster, 11-09-2012 14:12:48   6V or 12V should still have a resister. It allows full voltage while cranking, then cuts the voltage back while running which extends the life of your points.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 11-08-2012 20:36:42 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to old, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   I read slow, so let me make sure I follow. "Clip jumper from hot at starter to clip on other side of tractor for use as needed when needed." Starter only has power when the solenoid is activated, so I hope you mean from the battery side of the solenoid here. It may not be necessary at all if you have power to the coil with the key on. "Points are open on distr." and "NO voltage reading from either coil when wired positive post to side post on distr." If those two happen at the same time, then yes, you have a short in the distributor. It could be the feed through the side, or something internal being grounded. You can isolate that with voltage readings (key on) or with resistance readings (power off) by unhooking/disconnecting the components in the distributor until you find the problem. I prefer to use resistance readings and save the battery. "Please confirm that the coil for a positive ground tractor should receive battery power on the coil's negative post " Sounds right to me, but it will work either way. I would probably start by just unhooking the points from the feed through and see if the terminal on the points is still grounded. Let us know what you find!   [Reply]  [No Email]
equeen 11-09-2012 18:12:35 209.102.248.236 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Royse, 11-08-2012 20:36:42   Yes, battery cable to starter side of solenoid at the solenoid. Your comment: "It may not be necessary at all if you have power to the coil with the key on." Excellent point - and I do have power to the coil. You wrote: You can isolate that with voltage readings (key on) or with resistance readings (power off) by unhooking/disconnecting the components in the distributor until you find the problem. Correct - and that's what I'll be working further on when I get time to get back to it. After having identified and solved the problem of short with side feed thru distr, I'll be working with points and condenser. Have I really burned up 3 sets due to short at distr side feed??? Going for 4 I suppose. Thanks.   [Reply]  [No Email]
equeen 11-08-2012 15:23:17 209.102.248.236 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Okay, it doesn't matter what has been done before by whom. I have the tractor back here and I'm starting as if nothing has been done/checked. I will NOT be taking the head off to "look at the valves". Compression is approx 100 (meaning 98-103 or so) on each cyl - cold, dry. Battery at 6.2v. Clip jumper from hot at starter to clip on other side of tractor for use as needed when needed. (Points are open on distr.) Two different coils tested, not attached to distr: 6.2v negative post in, 6.2v from tower, 6.2v positive post out. (Please confirm that the coil for a positive ground tractor should receive battery power on the coil's negative post and should send power to the side post on distr from the positive coil post..................) NO voltage reading from either coil when wired positive post to side post on distr. Points and condenser checked. New points and condenser checked. No voltage reading on side post of distr. (Sounds like a solid short in distr now???) Points set and checked at each of 4 lobes of distr and steady at .025. New copper tab and insulator previously installed on side of distr. However I am concerned regarding the paper thin (maybe paper) insulator inside the distributor between the copper tab and inside wall of distributor????   [Reply]  [No Email]
oldcase 11-09-2012 12:30:48 166.147.89.158 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-08-2012 15:23:17   I had the exact same issue. Fired up my 8N yesterday & moved it from the barn to the garage to adjust the brakes. When the brakes were done it wouldn"t start. Had good fuel flow but intermittent spark. Did all the checks that were shown in all the responses you received but still no luck. Checked the coil by removing the coil wire from the center of the cap and held it 3/16 above a clean spot on the block; turned the key on & hit the starter; no spark. Checked the ignition switch and it was fine. Then I ran a jumper wire across the terminals of the resister (lift your access lid to the fuel tank and it"s on the firewall above the tool box) and repeated the coil test. Whammo! Spark up the kazoo! Ordered a new resister from Yesterday"s, part number A8NN12250A.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA) 11-08-2012 17:40:48 97.113.109.211 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-08-2012 15:23:17   equeen........compression is "O.K.", NOT chur problem. You ask........"Two different coils tested, not attached to distr: 6.2v negative post in, 6.2v from tower, 6.2v positive post out".......this is NORMAL for roundcan coils. Ittza LAW, Kerchoff's Law. Yer coil is what is classed as "auto-transformer" meaning ALL the turns are connected together. HOWSOMEVERS iff'n you "ohm'ed" between 2-terminals you'd read about 2-3 ohms for the primary (battery) turns and about 1700-ohms fer the high sparkie term (center term) You complain......."No voltage reading on side post of distr. (Sounds like a solid short in distr now???)" Iff'n yer points are closed, you will NOT read volts at the feed-thru. Ittza LAW. Kerchoff's Law. HOWSOMEVERS, the plastic feed-thru can also SHORT and you will also read NO VOLTS. Points must be OPEN (visually inspect) for volts at the feed-thru. ........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister   [Reply]  [No Email]
equeen 11-08-2012 17:47:42 209.102.248.236 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Dell (WA), 11-08-2012 17:40:48   Points were open - simply removed cap, rotor and dust cover and there they were. Turned engine to high point and voila - they opened. Checked with feeler guage at 4 lobes and voila - .025.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Kenster 11-08-2012 15:05:07 166.137.156.30 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to rusty j 14, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I'd venture that "EVERYONE" has done no such thing. I've primed the carb a few times by pouring a wee bit of gas into it but I've NEVER poured gas into the cylinders. Doesn't make any sense to me to do so.   [Reply]  [No Email]
NoNewParts 11-08-2012 04:39:27 67.240.145.25 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   all great advice #1 on a side-mount is the wire pass thru on the distributor. sooner or later, they all go bad. a rust 'bridge' there makes it intermittent and tough to find. also, as said, ignition switches made today are always suspect, even the toggle switches I use are 50% bad today out of the box .....or soon after. Since it has had many hands working on it, static time it by the book, and lock it down and leave it until you get it running.(make sure you use the right timing marks, there are 2) In the field with no tools, I take the cap and dust shield off, turn the key on and crank it over and LOOK at it. bright point spark on all lobes even when wiggling thru connector? ok, no problem here, on to the next......... edit: just wanted to add, that when you are following Bruce's good methodical testing write-ups. Never skip over a part just because it's new. test everything. chasing a random miss, on a Ford, and a JD recently, putting a meter on the new ignition switches on both 1 key, 1 toggle, showed my meter dancing all over the place. both junk This post was edited by NoNewParts at 04:53:14 11/08/12.   [Reply]  [No Email]
William Fissell 11-08-2012 11:11:24 129.59.115.13 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   This same symptom happened to my 640. Drove me nuts. As it turned out for me, the points had been modified to do away with the copper strip and the plastic square and screw, and the wire from coil to points was run through the hole in the distributor directly to the points, as has been described here at length. Well, on mine, the wire was getting flogged by the advance weights, which ripped off the insulation and shorted the coil to ground at inappropriate times. Sometimes a bright blue spark, sometimes no spark. Sometimes start, sometimes start and quit. Good luck, just passing on a 'gotcha' that drove me nuts for a few weeks. Bill   [Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA) 11-07-2012 21:37:10 97.113.109.211 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   equeen.........you write......."and tried pouring bit of gas in each cyl".......might as well whipped out the ol'whizzer and peeeeee into the engine. Liquid gasoline does NOT ignite!!! Must be a vapor. That is what yer carby does, create a burnable vapor for the sparkies to sparkle. The 5-nipple roundcan ignition coil is semi-bulletproof. HOWSOMEVERS; the side plastic feedthru can short out and you will never make sparkies. And when you change points (0.025") ALWAYS polish the INVISIBLE corrosion from between the points. Me? I use a clean $1-bill clamped between the points and pull. Iff'n yer really cheap, tear a strip from HEAVY brown paper grocery sack and use that. Leave yer frickin' head on, its is NOT yer problem. Ford compression specs: 90psi min, dry; new rebuilt engine is about 125psi. From yer 15-min runtime description, change yer weaksister ignition switch. ($10, cheap) ........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bill Bull 11-08-2012 04:57:04 24.59.99.190 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Dell (WA), 11-07-2012 21:37:10   Oh stop !!! equeen.........you write......."and tried pouring bit of gas in each cyl".......might as well whipped out the ol'whizzer and peeeeee into the engine. Liquid gasoline does NOT ignite!!! Must be a vapor. That is what yer carby does, create a burnable vapor for the sparkies to sparkl EVERYONE at one time or another has fired a engine by "Priming" the engine by putting "A little" gas in the cylinders ! Put your books away!   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 11-08-2012 05:47:08 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Bill Bull, 11-08-2012 04:57:04   " EVERYONE at one time or another ......" Which of course makes it a perfectly acceptable action. It also washes the cylinder walls & fouls the plugs. Starting fluid doesn't.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bill Bull 11-08-2012 20:07:08 24.59.99.190 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Bruce (VA), 11-08-2012 05:47:08   To do this "Once in a great while" will hurt nothing.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 11-07-2012 19:34:50 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Chris S., 11-07-2012 16:50:38   That would be it, thanks Bruce! Glad to see you online after the storm. I hope you weathered well!   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 11-08-2012 05:27:10 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to Royse, 11-07-2012 19:34:50   Yea, all is fine here in VA. Thank goodness I'm not further north. What a mess.   [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 11-07-2012 19:13:54 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   You need another "mechanic." " Next "trying" plan is to remove head and "look at valves"" That should be the reason. If you had a valve problem, it would have shown up in the compression check. Go get the tractor & fix it yourself. Next time it stops, check quickly for fuel then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler guage blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all. If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility. Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was. 50 Tips   [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 11-07-2012 18:56:35 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to soundguy, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   I don't remember what you've done up to now, but an intermittent problem is always the worst. At the moment it quits, do you still have spark? Still have fuel? Does the distributor shaft wobble side to side at all? Have you checked the insulator where the wire goes into the distributor to the points? I don't see any need to pull the head and "look at the valves". Bruce(VA) has a great step-by-step posted out here numerous times. If he doesn't chime in, you may want to search the archives for it. Best of luck!   [Reply]  [No Email]
old 11-07-2012 18:18:03 209.86.226.40 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   Check to be sure the points open to the same gap or very close on all 4 lobes. Next hot wire it. If it runs when hot wired you have problems from the coil back if it still does not run double check spark at the coil wire and then all 4 plug wires. The color of the spark is worthless if it will not jump a 1/4 inch gap or more at all 5 places   [Reply]  [No Email]
don t-9n180179 11-07-2012 17:13:24 63.73.199.69 Report to Moderator	Re: Ford 8N Starting Problem in reply to equeen, 11-07-2012 16:50:38   When it dies, check for spark. If no spark, jumper around the ignition switch and try to start. If it works, you know what part to buy(grin). HTH...good luck...don t. .....   [Reply]  [No Email]