12 volt conversion Electronic Ignition

E.

New User
1951 Side Mount 8n. I am going to convert to 12v system and was leaning towards relplacing distributor inerds with electronic ignition. I don't mean to start any should/shouldn't discussions as to the 12v system. I am using tractor mostly for plowing snow off 450 foot driveway in winter. I was wondering if anyone has experience with replacing distributor and how it works for them. I am also looking for some advice as to who has the best kits for both of these coversions. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thank you for all replies in advance. E.
 
You don't need an expensive "kit" to convert to 12 Volts.

You need a Delco 10SI alternator (or equivalent) and a bracket to mount it, and a REAL 12 Volt coil (NAPA IC 14SB or equivalent).

You can get the alternator from a "recycler" for about $10 or less than $50 from an auto parts store and there's plenty of posts in the archives on where to buy a pulley and bracket at a reasonable cost on the 'net.

For the EI, Pertronix is the only game in town.

They make the EI kits and another outfit or two rebrands them and sells them with their own company name on the box.

Clear as mud???
 
My '48 8N (mine for 2 years) came with 12v system. I installed Pertronix ignition in January this year. Easy install. Works great. No problems. I get fire every time I mash the button.
 


The EI debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & unfortunately, a little BS (“ my EI system doesn't have any transistors... “) . And sometimes you will find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to installing EI on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. (“the automotive industry went to EI 35 years ago”)

The opinions about EI you will find in the archives can be grouped in three broad categories:

1. EI on an N is the greatest invention since sliced bread.

2. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

3. EI on an N is a waste of money & will ultimately cause you more problems than points ever will.

There are specific pros & cons for keeping a points system and for using EI on an N. What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. EI does not have annual maintenance requirements.



I’ll offer my rationale for keeping the points in my N’s; if our experience & situation are similar, then perhaps EI isn’t the answer for you either.



Knowledge. I was probably 13 or 14 when I learned how to change a set of points; that was in 1962 or 63. The last car I owned w/ points was a 65 Mustang which I sold in 1991. I can fix them or change them & I have the tools to do it; I understand how they work & understand the need to use quality parts. But, while I understand how EI works, I do not have the tools to fix it when it breaks. When it stops, it stops. You aren't going to get it going again w/ a finger nail file, screwdriver & a dime to set the gap. Even as frustrating as points can be at times, worst case scenario is replace them for $16 and continue work. Not so w/ that EI unless you have some hi-tech testing equipment & the skills to use it. Don’t use the reliability of the EI on your car or truck as a benchmark for longevity on your N. Your car’s ignition system was designed for the EI & uses far different materials at much closer tolerances than your 60 year old tractor’s ignition system, designed for points. There are many specific & valid reasons that vehicles today use EI & most of those reasons are not applicable to a 23 hp, 2400 rpm 60 year old tractor engine. If you think an EI on these N’s is foolproof, then do that archive search I suggested.

6v System. All 4 of my N’s are 6v & I haven’t had a reason to convert them to 12v. And, because of the precise voltage requirements of EI (it won’t work below 5.2v) EI on a 6v system is just a problem waiting to happen.

Maintenance. I keep my 2 front distributor & 2 side distributor N’s well maintained. Contrary to what some folks will tell you, EI will not cure a bad rotor or cap, worn plug wires, a bad ballast resistor, an ill-fitting coil or any other typical ignition problems found on these old tractors. The EI is only going to be as good as the system it’s installed on. All you get by putting an EI on an N w/ these problems is a poorly running N w/ an EI instead of points.

Consequence of error. If I hook up the battery cables backward on my points system nothing happens to them. Reverse polarity on an EI and it fries. If I leave the key on & the points are closed, I melt the points & probably the coil. That’s a $40 mistake. If you leave the key on w/ EI, that’s a $150 mistake.

Cost. I can replace a lot of points for the cost of EI. And, in my case, I’d need to convert the tractor to 12v, so that’s a total cost of around $235.

EI does not give you higher spark voltage, eliminate all maintenance on your ignition system or give enough of a horsepower boost to cause the tractor to do wheelies. It replaces the points. That’s it. It will not correct or overcome other problems in the ignition system. While it may give you more HP or improve fuel economy, both would be so insignificant as to be hardly noticeable on a 23 hp engine. If you can’t set points or don’t care to do it, or you don’t want to spend the 30 minutes or so a year to check the gap & lube the cam, then you will be happy w/ EI. And, the EI unit itself will be maintenance free. (but the rest of the ignition system won’t) You will spend probably $235 for an EI kit & 12v conversion. If you install them correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 volt conversion & EI will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.

Here is the key advantage to EI: you do not need to replace the points every 4 or 5 years or gap & lube them every year. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.

Here are the key disadvantages to EI on an N: initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.

Bottom line……….this is the question you need to answer: “If tens of thousands of other N’s operate just fine on 6v and points, why can’t mine?”
50 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 09:24:16 03/10/10)


...... What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. EI does not have annual maintenance requirements.

Ability -

The points on a side mount distributor are super easy to get to , unlike the fun project of a small block chevy .

Interest -

The front mounts are not that hard to get off but it is not a fun task for me , your mileage my vary .



One thing I don't know (OK , it's a long list) is how much slop in the shaft an EI system can tolerate . I know points and sloppy bushings or worn lobes are trouble , but I wonder how the ei handles a little side to side movement .

Just curious , I know its not hard to install new bushings ($5 set) but a new shaft ($73) is close to the price of an ei set ($86)
 
(quoted from post at 19:56:05 03/10/10)
(quoted from post at 09:24:16 03/10/10)


...... What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. EI does not have annual maintenance requirements.

Ability -

The points on a side mount distributor are super easy to get to , unlike the fun project of a small block chevy .

Interest -

The front mounts are not that hard to get off but it is not a fun task for me , your mileage my vary .



One thing I don't know (OK , it's a long list) is how much slop in the shaft an EI system can tolerate . I know points and sloppy bushings or worn lobes are trouble , but I wonder how the ei handles a little side to side movement .

Just curious , I know its not hard to install new bushings ($5 set) but a new shaft ($73) is close to the price of an ei set ($86)
If it is working, it is working, so don't fix it. Having said that, mfgr supplies a little plastic feeler gauge of 0.030 in thickness for setting the gap and go on to say 0.010 to 0.060 is supposed to work. That would equate to a LOT of wear! Of course, the dwell couldn't possibly be constant over such a range, but if it runs OK, then it runs OK.
 
(quoted from post at 17:13:25 03/10/10)


.....Of course, the dwell couldn't possibly be constant over such a range.....

I had to look up dwell and ei systems ,

[i:4b8f59f311]The dwell period on an engine with electronic ignition is controlled by the current limiting circuit within the amplifier or Electronic Control Module (ECM). The dwell on a variable dwell or constant energy system will be seen to expand as the engine speed increases, compensating for the shorter time period.[/i:4b8f59f311]

Plus for the EI team , but I dont think theres a problem at 2200 rpm though.

I also noticed at the pertronix site that leaving the key on (without the motor running) will probably toast your $86 unit , big plus for the points team .
 
(quoted from post at 20:59:01 03/10/10)
(quoted from post at 17:13:25 03/10/10)


.....Of course, the dwell couldn't possibly be constant over such a range.....

I had to look up dwell and ei systems ,

[i:f8f283a2a1]The dwell period on an engine with electronic ignition is controlled by the current limiting circuit within the amplifier or Electronic Control Module (ECM). The dwell on a variable dwell or constant energy system will be seen to expand as the engine speed increases, compensating for the shorter time period.[/i:f8f283a2a1]

Plus for the EI team , but I dont think theres a problem at 2200 rpm though.

I also noticed at the pertronix site that leaving the key on (without the motor running) will probably toast your $86 unit , big plus for the points team .

Sorry, Ken...that is some generic one size fits all generality and does NOT apply to the simple EI units sold for these tractors.

[i:f8f283a2a1]I had to look up dwell and ei systems ,

The dwell period on an engine with electronic ignition is controlled by the current limiting circuit within the amplifier or Electronic Control Module (ECM). The dwell on a variable dwell or constant energy system will be seen to expand as the engine speed increases, compensating for the shorter time period.[/i:f8f283a2a1]
 
Hey guys thank you for all your replys as I said I really didn't want to start a should I or Shouldn't I debate. I live in Michigan and bought the tractor in December. It is stored in a garage without heat. The reason I am converting it is I got it to run "most" of the time this winter I needed it (luckily not too much snow and when it wouldn't start my nieghbor with a JOHN DEERE plowed me out) You can see why I need it to start and run in cold weather. Right now it is not starting or starting very hard and will sometimes quit for no good reason. I know I need a new battery and voltage reg anyway. I understand wanting to keep thngs original but I also know why you can't buy a new car with points any more. If I had A spare tractor or two I would and could run a 6v system. I just wanted to know from someone who has been where I am now and found what worked and what did'nt what to avoid and what to look for. Please know that I mean no disrespect at all to any of you. You guys are awesome to try to help out a fellow 8n owner. Thank you E.
 

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