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Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 08:38:50 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	So, my father and I have a 1940 JD H, we received from my grandpa (a true JD aficionado with at least 15 restored JD tractors) as a present some years ago, got it restored nice, however even then, it was hard to start. Now, after sitting several years, more like a decade, we are tearing back into it to get it up and going again. However, we are failing significantly. We started with the carb, pulled it off, cleaned it off, sprayed carb cleaner followed by compressed air in and through all the ports and passages... I mean all of them. Every single little brass screw on that carb. Ensured with a small wire and flashlight that they are all unblocked. Still won"t hand start. Checked spark, getting good spark, even tried to use just a slightly hotter plug as advised by a wise h restorer in our area. No change. Checked valve clearance at the rockers (.015), so that"s good. I"m now at the point of taking off the mag and governor side cover to ensure she is firing at the right time, between the crank, cam, and governor shaft. However, I doubt that is the problem since I can see that the index mark of the camshaft and the governor shaft are in line with one another. It just seems like we are not getting fuel. Correct me if I"m wrong, but if fully choked and spark plugs out, we ought to be getting fuel spraying out the spark plug holes when we hand crank it over, right? Or, after turning the flywheel over with full choke, then pull the plugs out, they ought to be wet with gas, correct? Well, we are not. It has decent compression (50psi both sides as best as we can test with a rubber-tipped tester and someone turning it over). And nothing is blocking the manifold between carb and cylinder based on the fact that we can get sufficient compressed air through into the chamber when the intake valve is open. It pull or pop starts with a chain and another tractor, and runs well afterwards, but won"t restart after shutting down and won"t start up cold by hand turning the flywheel. Any help or suggestions would be oh so greatly appreciated! Thanks so much! [Reply]   [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-13-2012 06:58:53 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   From a forum about a hard starting H to the local history of Bellefontaine, Ohio, lol! My grandpa happened to have another rotor for the mag/distributor sitting in his shop, so we stuck that in and she starts right up. So, I guess the cap and pins must still be in good shape, based on the fact that I had her started 3 different times yesterday. Thanks so much everyone for your help and suggestions! If I have any other questions or at some point start into another project, I know what resource to turn to! Again, thanks. [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 08-10-2012 08:52:52 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   ...AND, it's the highest point in Ohio. [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-09-2012 16:10:42 64.134.173.70 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   Yes, oldest concrete street in America... The concrete looks pretty old but I would doubt any of the original remains. It is still used today, daily in fact, as it boarders one side of the county courthouse. Update is the partial choke and cracking the throttle did the trick, starts like a charm. However, she gave me a scare. Took right off when I first tried her, shut her off by shutting off the fuel, turned the fuel back on, waited a minute, and then tried again and nothing. Took out the plugs, and all of the sudden, there is no spark. I thought, oh no, I thought I had that variable figured out. Took the mag off, lo behold, the rotor in the distributor is slightly wallowed wider than the shaft and had misaligned and therefore, miss timed. After macgyvering it with some cardboard in to tighten it up, all is well again, starts like a champ. Obviously need to replace that magneto rotor, but my new questions is, should I or do I or would it be wise to replace the cap with the two pins in addition? This post was edited by Garrett M, Ohio at 16:11:54 08/09/12. [Reply]  [No Email]
dan_41jdh 08-10-2012 07:12:14 24.149.8.64 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-09-2012 16:10:42   Garrett, glad to hear that your "H" starts better. Every tractor has its own little idiosyncrasies for starting, but it seems like every "H" I've heard of starts much better with little or no throttle and very little choking. Regarding your magneto cap, you'll need to determine its suitability by carefully inspecting the inside. If the pins leading to the spark plug cables have been damaged by a rotor swinging into them, or if the coil contact is severely worn or damaged, or if there is any sign of cracking or carbon tracking, you should replace it. Regardless, by replacing it anyway, you have eliminated another possible problem and it certainly can't hurt to do it... Regarding Bellefontaine, it was probably 30 or 35 years ago when we installed a piece of equipment at a hose manufacturing plant in Bellefontaine, and our manufacturer's representative who was escorting us factory engineers to the jobsite took us downtown to see that concrete street. Neat history. [Reply]  [No Email]
jwegienka 08-09-2012 06:29:53 207.72.4.97 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   I agree with Dan 41. I had the exact problems and symptoms as you when starting it. Tractor was TOTALY rebuilt. Talked to an older gentleman who said either half choke or no choke and low-and-behold it fired right up and does every time with this method. Sometimes 1 turn of the flywheel with full choke then pull choke off and she'll fire up within 2 cranks. Good luck !!! [Reply]  [No Email]
dan_41jdh 08-08-2012 18:27:18 69.66.239.91 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   Garrett, the fellows have all given good advice. And you’ve already stated you have a good spark (verified during hand cranking, I assume), and that your tractor runs well after you finally get it started. (And we’ll assume running well means it idles slowly and evenly, and it accelerates well, and it runs well at high idle, also.) There are a few more things that you might want to consider. Your carburetor should be a DLTX 26 or DLTX 46. The choke plate in those carburetors have a little relief valve in the form of a flapper plate over a hole in the choke plate, and a small spring holds the flapper plate in place over the hole. Make sure that plate and spring are in position and are working, or else your choke is basically worthless. Your fuel should be FRESH, and some suggest avoiding ethanol blends as they aren’t quite as volatile as straight gasoline and will have a small effect on starting. Today’s gasolines tend to lose volatility more quickly than those of years ago. Use a fairly large spark plug gap; .030” is standard, but .035” or even .040” will help starting. And I find that fresh, non-carboned plugs will enhance starting to a remarkable degree. If I have to pull the flywheel on my “H” more than three times, I will change to fresh plugs, and it’ll fire up every time on the very next pull. Loose throttle shaft bushings will leak air into the carburetor and will work against choking, as will loose brass plugs in the carburetor body. Same thing about leaky manifold gaskets and the carb-to-manifold gasket – although all those things would greatly affect running performance, which you indicate is good. Check the fuel level in the carburetor bowl. It should be ¾” below the cast iron body of the carb. Most “H’s” are very happy to start with little or no choking, and with very little throttle. Although the Instructions always said to start with ½ throttle and choking, my “H” will be very cantankerous if treated that way. It starts quite well with the throttle closed and no choke, unless the temperature is below 50 degrees or so. Then one turn with the choke, and no more. As Frank mentioned, FSB 200 (issued in 1959) did admit that tractors that started hard may start better with little or no throttle. The idea is that the higher velocity air rushing past the small gap between the throttle bore and the plate will better vaporize the fuel, apparently. In summary though, if your tractor has good cranking spark, and it runs very well throughout the speed range after it is started, and if you’re unable to flood it by choking, it sounds as if you have a problem with your choke. [Reply]  [No Email]
rusty wheel 08-08-2012 18:11:54 75.180.23.218 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   Hey Garrett, I'm in Galloway Ohio. Where are you? [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 18:40:34 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to rusty wheel, 08-08-2012 18:11:54   Thanks everyone for all your help. I will keep you posted as we (again, my father and I) move forward in trying to get the little H starting well. Rusty Wheel, to answer your question. I'm from the Bellefontaine Area. [Reply]  [No Email]
dan_41jdh 08-09-2012 06:40:42 24.149.8.64 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 18:40:34   Ah yes. Bellefountaine - where the VERY FIRST concrete street/road paving in the United States was poured, back in the 1800's sometime, if I remember correctly. Does that old street with the original concrete still exist? [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 08-08-2012 19:06:42 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 18:40:34   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I spent twenty years in Fostoria, and have driven through Kenton and Bellfontaine many times. [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 08-08-2012 13:51:35 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   To save me some time typing, go take a read through this section of Pat's write up: [img]http://www.jdhpubs.com/linksPdf/Carburetors.pdf[/img] [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 14:28:36 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to F-I-T, 08-08-2012 13:51:35   I have a copy of that write up, and I assume you mean the "#3 Secret Passage is located in the bottom of the carburetor stem and across from the idle needle tip (the lower leg of the IDLE FUEL‐AIR MIX)". If so, then yes that was clear. [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 08-08-2012 12:18:23 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   ...It is an all-fuel, and that compression reading was with a rubber cone tipped gauge pressed into the spark hole by one of us while the other turned it over by hand, so by no means deadly accurate. If you can get it running on #1, you can leave the #2 plug out and get a running compression. Otherwise, it's handy to have a belt, and turn it over fast. Then your old rubber tip compression gauge might get better readings. But the throttle has to be wide open. ...What is an acceptable leak-down? Less than 20% It has carbon in and around the valves, but I would imagine no more than any other 60 yr old tractor. Not trying to be smart, but I thought you said it was "restored". Weren't the valves ground/rings replaced then? Always a good idea for the grind guy to blast out the exhaust ports at head rebuild, ...I"ll try it again with the throttle barely open and maybe even some starter fluid. Save the ether for last until you are sure that the barely cracked throttle doesn't work. If it DOES respond to ether, then you still have a fuel delivery issue. I can't lay my hands on the "H" nozzle design right now, but I'll look around. The nozzle is mostly important as a load reservoir, but I've seen a lot of junk around them that shankes loos and clogs other passaages. did you get the extra little passage down on the bottom side of the carb stem? [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 12:40:16 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to F-I-T, 08-08-2012 12:18:23   I know you weren't trying to be smart! When my grandpa got it on a trade he was told it was fully rebuilt, so we trusted it because it ran, minus difficult starting every so often, and went ahead painted it all up nice. I was young and kinda oblivious at that point in my life. Nonetheless, the carbon around the valves, as best as I can see through the spark holes, doesn't look ungodly nasty. I planned the ether last anyway. I am awfully certain that I got all the passages clear. Which passage specifically are you talking about? I know what you mean by the stem (nozzle fits up in the stem), but got lost from there on. Idle, load, economizer? [Reply]  [No Email]
Mark-Ia 08-08-2012 11:53:37 67.55.246.70 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   valve clearance should be .020, points in the mag are .015 [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 11:59:16 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Mark-Ia, 08-08-2012 11:53:37   My bad, I did measure them with the .020 feeler gauge, I just didn't write it out correctly... Thanks for the call-out! [Reply]  [No Email]
rusty wheel 08-08-2012 11:09:17 75.180.23.218 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   Try a little starter fluid in the air intake and see if it will fire when you crank it. Might want to check the spring in the mag. It may not be snapping like it should to produce a good spark. Make sure you don't have an air leak at the throttle shaft in the carb and that it's not sucking air between the carb and manifold. Just a few ideas. [Reply]  [No Email]
Garrett M, Ohio 08-08-2012 11:56:20 71.50.214.29 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to rusty wheel, 08-08-2012 11:09:17   The spark is that nice blue hue so I assume the mag is snapping right. I have a new gasket between manifold and carb, and the throttle shaft doesn"t seem, feel, or appear loose (to the point where there would be major vacuum lose). Yes I did push down the nozzle, and it was nice and clean when I put it back in. I tapped it very, VERY lightly to seat it, for fear of damaging it. Would air get around the nozzle outlet in the venturi and not pick up fuel? Also, do they normally have 4 holes at the bottom and 4 or so up one side, right? (I hope I didn"t miss cleaning out any holes on it, because that would explain the lack of fuel!) It is an all-fuel, and that compression reading was with a rubber cone tipped gauge pressed into the spark hole by one of us while the other turned it over by hand, so by no means deadly accurate. I will give a call to a mechanic friend and see if I can use his leak-down gauge. What is an acceptable leak-down? It has carbon in and around the valves, but I would imagine no more than any other 60 yr old tractor. Typically have tried to start it with throttle at half, thinking open it up to get the fuel out of the carb and into the cylinder. So, I"ll try it again with the throttle barely open and maybe even some starter fluid. I guess it"s time to eliminate more variables? [Reply]  [No Email]
F-I-T 08-08-2012 10:39:44 184.6.240.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 1940 John Deere H Hard Starting in reply to Garrett M, Ohio, 08-08-2012 08:38:50   ... however even then, it was hard to start. H's are notorious for being difficult to start or restart hot, IF the are carburetor or compression issues. One Field Service Bulletin recommended to just crack the throttle so that the air/fuel charge would beless, making cranking easier and it would cause the carb to draw fuel better. You might try that. That said, I have a very worn out '41 "H", and it would not start worth a darn. Timing is spot on, bnoth impulse and running. I went through the carb a couple of times, with some improvement. I found an old "H" carb in my storage that I had forgot about, cleaned it up, and it started and runs fine. Cold starts or hot restarts, but as worn out as it is, it has over 70 psi compression, and normal readings on a leakdown tester. So, it is possible to miss something in those carbs, simple as they may be. One of these days, I need to find out just what is wrong with that other carb. ... We started with the carb, pulled it off, cleaned it off, sprayed carb cleaner followed by compressed air in and through all the ports and passages... I mean all of them. Every single little brass screw on that carb. Did you pull the nozzle out? there will be a lot of trsh up in there, you can bet. ...I"m now at the point of taking off the mag and governor side cover to ensure she is firing at the right time, between the crank, cam, and governor shaft. However, I doubt that is the problem since I can see that the index mark of the camshaft and the governor shaft are in line with one another. Then don't screw with the governor. If the gears are in register, then leave them alone. ...It just seems like we are not getting fuel. Correct me if I"m wrong, but if fully choked and spark plugs out, we ought to be getting fuel spraying out the spark plug holes when we hand crank it over, right? Or, after turning the flywheel over with full choke, then pull the plugs out, they ought to be wet with gas, correct? Yeah, at least damp. I wouldn't say that fuel will spurt out. ...t has decent compression (50psi both sides as best as we can test with a rubber-tipped tester and someone turning it over). 50 psi is pretty low. They may be low compression all-fuel engines, but H's need all the pressure they can muster. The trick of just barely cracking the throttle plate may help it draw better. ...And nothing is blocking the manifold between carb and cylinder based on the fact that we can get sufficient compressed air through into the chamber when the intake valve is open. Got any nasty cqarbon build up in the valve chambers? It pull or pop starts with a chain and another tractor, and runs well afterwards, but won"t restart after shutting down and won"t start up cold by hand turning the flywheel. I still think that it is compression and carburetion. [Reply]  [No Email]