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Texasmark1 07-31-2012 19:23:40 67.142.175.27 Report to Moderator	Jim, I got my manual for the 375 today. It cleared up some questions. However, I was still puzzled over the bale tensioner cylinder that you and the manual talked about. Since I only had 2 (plus the tie arm cylinder) I didn't understand that the one on the right side was dual purpose. It not only operated the gate, but when the gate was closed it helped to or did determine the bale tension. I called the JD house today and the tech said that the 3 valves on the hydraulic distribution box were the high pressure relief valve on the rt side, top rear, low pressure relief rt side bottom rear, and the little stub valve was a check valve. The book said that a loose bale could be caused: Internal leak in cylinder Dirty/defective relief valve....didn't say which Bale ends not filled tightly.....the whole width of the bale wasn't real tight so I am discounting this one. It's obvious how the cylinder operates when dumping the bale and closing the gate.....I think. Question is, when the bale starts to grow in size, the arm connected to the front end of the rt. cylinder tries to (I guess it does) pull the cylinder away from the piston which is attached to the closed gate and immovable. Apparently this action works against a pressure relief valve which, when the pressure gets high or low enough it relaxes and allows fluid to move which allows the cylinder to move away from the piston. This makes sense in that a defective relief valve could allow the pressure to release too soon and thus make for a sloppy bale. So sir, which valve should I be looking at for this problem; the low or high pressure relief valve? This would be the easiest to troubleshoot. I'd have to figure out how to test the cylinder to see if it is leaking internally. Also, If I were to plumb in a pressure gauge, like the 530 had so that I could monitor my belt pressure, where would I plumb it in.......the line going to the rear of the right cylinder since that is the one that is being pressurized by the bale fill arm attempting to pull the cylinder apart ? Finally sir, if I didn't use the JD green and red pressure gauge like on the 530 and just used a standard liquid filled pressure gauge, what range would I need and what is a good baling pressure?" Thanks a bunch and sorry for being so naive but things just didn't make sense till I saw a cartoon in the manual about "making a bale" and saw the arm that the cylinder is attached to in different positions as the bale filled. That did the trick. Thanks, Mark [Reply]   [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-03-2012 13:38:17 67.142.163.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Mark-Ia, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Mark Since the introduction of JD 430/530 rd balers I'll venture to guess that 90-95% of bale formation/levelness problems are caused by operator error and poor windrow formation.Since I've become disabled I have to resort/rely on people to run my baler while I sit in the field and observe. If my baler operators make several un-level bales then I stop them and the first thing they tell me is something is wrong with my equipment. I tell them no it's operator error. Then I struggle into the tractor seat and prove to them that the problem is "actually operator error". This post was edited by Tx Jim at 13:41:38 08/03/12 2 times. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-03-2012 12:12:56 67.142.175.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Texasmark1, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Jim, Had a lengthy chat with the local JD dealer baler field rep. today. He pointed out things that you and other respondents pointed out and I missed, couldn't believe, misunderstood the importance, excuse, excuse, etc. For the time being the only problem I have is the OPERATOR!!!!!!!! And he said that operator problems far exceed equipment failures........sounds reasonable given the circumstances. Grin. So sir, again thanks and I may just go and look for a 335 that is only 4' wide and trade my 5' as my baling tractor is 4wd and the tires are out as far as they can go and still only 4' on inside dimensions and even though I can stomp on hay in today's weather, he said in the spring when things are wet, I will miss a lot of hay that I stomped in the ground. Oh well, Thanks again, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-03-2012 05:22:06 67.142.163.27 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim....Update Aug 2 in reply to Elton Fancher, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Mark I never really understood how the tension valve really worked on a JD rd baler that had hyd bale tension. Even though your 375 and my 467 aren't exactly the same as the number of cylinders involved the principle is the same(hyd tension on belts with tension arms) My 467 does as I stated: close the gate the pressure gauge is low,start forming the core and pressure gauge moves up to the RED mark. I would like for someone to tell me what function parts key #13 plays. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-03-2012 07:03:14 67.142.175.25 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim....Update Aug 2 in reply to Tx Jim, 08-03-2012 05:22:06   Swag: It is part of the Check Valve relief when the chamber is filling and blocks pressure from the tractor hydraulics when they are in control....so that the fluid coming out of the rear (shaft end) of the cylinder when the bale is forming can exit. I had it out and looked at it and it's just a cylinder with an O-ring and teflon backups with a pin that mounts against the valve. On my comment about the 900# growing to 2750, one might assume that the small size of the bail forming doesn't require all that much pressure and I tend to agree, except my bales were loose all the way from the core to the OD. Course till I put another bale in there and monitor the pressure gauge I won't know. Wish it wasn't so hot outside. Would go and unroll a bale and redo it. I don't know. Guess I'll talk to my local JD baler expert next time I'm in town and pick his brain...maybe buy him lunch (make it a working lunch. Ha!). Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-02-2012 12:57:07 67.142.163.21 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim....Update Aug 2 in reply to NW MO Poppers, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see The 900# pressure sounds close to correct. The pressure should build to 2750 after bale core is formed while baling if relief valve is operating correctly. Please bale some hay and report back. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-03-2012 04:41:25 67.142.175.25 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim....Update Aug 2 in reply to Tx Jim, 08-02-2012 12:57:07   Jim sir, you have stayed with me with my hard headed attitude, but I have survived in my career by questioning things that didn't make sense. So please bear with me on this. First of all I have no hay to bale right now and with the heat and all I don't get out and do a lot of work. Buttttt we'll see what I can do. ----------------- I thought about what you said before you said it asking myself this: If I had a separate cylinder (pair) for bale forming pressure I could see what you said and recall that you said somewhere that as soon as the bail starts forming the pressure should jump up, spike or something of the sort. That was apparently on a different machine that had a gauge as standard equipment and may have had separate cylinders for gate and bale forming. And that would make a lot of sense....just asking a question sir! ------------- I have one cylinder (pair) that closes the gate and sets bale forming pressure. As long as I hold the remote lever in the close position I am applying tractor pressure to that line. Either a relief valve in the implement will pop first, or my tractors relief valve will pop at 3000 + psig...don't remember number but is over 3000. For me to spike pressure and have it hold at 900 tells me a valve somewhere is bleeding off. Since when I close the gate and it bottoms out, I am applying all the pressure to that piston that the system will allow. In my opinion (and I am surely not the authority) if a relief stopped the pressure from increasing at that point, how could it allow the pressure to continue on up to 2750? There is only one line on that side of the cylinder. My humble opinion is: The tractor pumps fluid into the cylinder, behind the piston, retracting the shaft, bringing the gate down with very little pressure.....hardly registers on the 5000# gauge....rightly so, not much work in lowering the gate. When the gate bottoms out (fully closes) all of a sudden you are trying to continue to lower the gate and it is against the baler frame and can't move. Wala. Pressure spike. How high? Until the tractor's engine loads down and quits running, or a relief valve somewhere releases the pressure, it will continue to rise. Still assuming, how I envision it: The pressure spikes to 2750 and holds. You release the remote and the system is closed off at that pressure. You start forming a bale. As you do the forming arm moves the cylinder away from the shaft and in doing so attempts to increase the pressure from the 2750 to something higher, but can't because the pop off won't allow it and keeps bleeding off. So the whole time the bale is getting larger, the cylinder and shaft are moving apart and the popoff is holding the pressure constant at 2750 and in doing so forms a uniform tight bale. ---------------- I agree with you that if I stop the gate at 900# and start rolling, the pressure on the line could move (attempt to move) on up to 2750 but, among other things, that would have the forming pressure increase from 900 to 2750 and the core of the bale would be loose and it would tighten up as you get to the max diameter. I don't think this is what is supposed to happen. What do you think? Really appreciate your time and maybe we both (and any viewers following) are picking up some pointers here. Awaiting your reply, Best Regards, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-02-2012 12:03:54 67.142.175.22 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim....Update Aug 2 in reply to Texasmark1, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Got my gauge and adapters today, all quality industrial parts. Put the gauge in the high pressure line that feeds the shaft end of the cylinders at the rear of the hyd box that "feels" the pressure when the bale starts to form. Where I put it, I can easily view it from my tractor seat. In looking at the high and low press relief valves, the low is around 375 and the high is rated at 2750. With the gauge in the line, the pressure was low as I lowered the gate and when the gate bottomed the pressure only SPIKED to 900. Did it half dozen times and same result. I let is sit for awhile with pressure on the closed gate, tractor control valve centered and it did bleed off, but took quite a while.....minutes. The pressure spike was instantaneous. So, sir, if I had a packing leaking in a cylinder, or had O-rings on the components in the hyd box leaking, I could see things leaking off over time. But none of those leaking potential problems would only allow the gate bottomed out pressure to instantaneously jump to 900 rather than 2700#. I think I have the smoking gun ($276) in the high pressure relief valve. If it were operating correctly, I (opinion) would have had my gate shut pressure shoot up to 2700-2800 range. Other thing: When I lift the gate, using the low pressure relief valve (high pressure gauge mentioned reads 0#), the gate lifts in a timely manner and when at max extension the tractor engine loads up under the pressure. When I close the gate and hold the closed lever and get my 900# the tractor engine barely notices the load. Last, In looking through my service manual, I found a flow diagram for the cylinders which not only told me which was the high pressure and low pressure circuit, but also identified the only 2 cylinders this baler has as: "Gate and bale tension cylinders". I did learn something here. Ok my man, what do you think? Thanks, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-01-2012 06:30:45 67.142.163.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to showcrop, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   The later larger JD rd balers such as my 467 have 2 gate & 2 tension cylinders. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-01-2012 12:58:59 67.142.175.23 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Tx Jim, 08-01-2012 06:30:45   Yes sir, just as my 530 did as I recall...cylinders or huge springs; I think it had the springs with tension adjusting capabilities. I went through the fluid distribution box today and pulled out the HP and LP release valves and the check valve. Everything was pristeen, clean, and no sign of damage. While in there I found 2 places where I could pull a plug and mount a pressure gauge to monitor the cylinder pressure when the bale forms....like you mentioned: "Soon after the bale starts, the pressure will pop up......" I don't have the JD green and red gauge but I did look at my hyd pressure spec for my tractor, max and min....2600/360. I am this minute arranging for some adapters so that I can put the pressure gauge (0-5000 psi) on the fluid distribution box, both high and low pressure sides and get a reading. The box looked like a perfect place to place the monitor as there are numerous plugs I can remove and use the outlet, and the gauge will be right in front of the baler where I can easily see it. Stay tuned................Grin, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-01-2012 05:52:32 67.142.163.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Jeff From WI., 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Mark I just looked at parts catalog. There's no serial number break on the tensioning system or valve. If your baler has 2 gate cylinders and not a 3rd cylinder then I think both gate cylinder act as tension cylinders. It would be nice if Roger from IA a retired Ottmwa JD factory employee would comment on this. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-01-2012 06:28:14 67.142.175.21 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Tx Jim, 08-01-2012 05:52:32   If he doesn't catch it, I'll ping him. You know Jim, Mother Deere made a few mistakes along the way, but they had a lot of absolutely brilliant people working for them. One example is the Johnny popper, another is this baler. Think about it. You have to have the cylinders there to operate the gate any way, why not save a cylinder, cost accessories and all, and just use what you have for 2 functions. Absolutely brilliant. Thanks, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-01-2012 04:25:48 67.142.163.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to S. Cooke, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   Mark After I posted I studied the hyd hose schematics and I may be incorrect. The parts lists 2 gate cyl's and a tension cyl but I see no hoses for 3(three) cyl's to attach. Having never seen a JD 375 rd baler in person I have to rely on JD parts for my information. [Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1 08-01-2012 05:22:00 67.142.175.21 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Tx Jim, 08-01-2012 04:25:48   My serial number is 899,000. Starting with SN 901,000 they have a new manual. I do not have the third cylinder. I have looked all over for it and it isn't there. Possibly this parts breakdown is for the later series which may have the 3rd cylinder added as the original idea (guessing, the early SN's like mine didn't function as originally thought) in the design. However, what's confusing (as we both recognized) there are only 4 hoses which fit the 2 gate cylinders. I just used different terminology, but I agree on the growing belt trying to pull the shaft/packing wad out of the rt. cylinder and the cylinder resists, making the bale more dense till the relief valve lets go. Seems to me that there had to be more that just trying to run 2 gate cylinders off a single remote when they added that valve body with reliefs and all rather than just putting tees in the lines and splitting the fluid to each side. Thanks for the info on the O-rings and the parts blow up. Appreciate your comments. I will disassemble the valves and check for problems. If none, I will spring for packing and redo the cylinders. Will be in touch. Thanks, Mark [Reply]  [No Email]
Tx Jim 08-01-2012 04:06:34 67.142.163.26 Report to Moderator	Re: Tx. Jim.....I'm catching on finally in reply to Texasmark1, 07-31-2012 19:23:40   [quote="Texasmark1"](quoted from post at 22:23:40 07/31/12) Jim, I didn't understand that the one on the right side was dual purpose. It not only operated the gate, but when the gate was closed it helped to or did determine the bale tension. Answer:Actually the tension cyl raises the tension arms with the belt rollers to relieve tension on the belts with gate is opened and the 2(two) gate cylinders raise/lower the gate. Look at the 1st photo. 6A AE48334 Hydraulic Cylinder 2 X X (SUB AE57400) AE50113 Seal Kit 1 X X (USE WITH AE48334)SPIRAL RING-R ETAINING BEARING GLAND CYLINDER AE57400 Hydraulic Cylinder 2 X X (SUB AH212335) AE57273 Seal Kit 1 X X (USE WITH AE57400)THREAD ED BEARING GLAND CYLINDER 6B AH212335 Hydraulic Cylinder 1 X X Internal leak in cylinder Dirty/defective relief valve....didn't say which Bale ends not filled tightly.....the whole width of the bale wasn't real tight so I am discounting this one. Answer: disassemble valve and look for blow o-rings then worry about a faulty relief valve.Look at 2nd photo. parts key #1 AE54853 VALVE, RELIEF (FIX-2750 PSI) ADD 210.00 USD parts key #14 AE43612 VALVE, RELIEF ADD 267.75 USD Question is, when the bale starts to grow in size, the arm connected to the front end of the rt. cylinder tries to (I guess it does) pull the cylinder away from the piston which is attached to the closed gate and immovable. Answer: you're correct except bale tension tries to pull the rod/piston out of cylinder as bale grows. Length of travel is determined by relief valve. So sir, which valve should I be looking at for this problem; the low or high pressure relief valve? Answer:as previously stated look for blown o-ring first before high priced valves. I saw a cartoon in the manual about "making a bale" and saw the arm that the cylinder is attached to in different positions as the bale filled. That did the trick. Answer: We're making progress. This post was edited by Tx Jim at 04:18:01 08/01/12. [Reply]  [No Email]