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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

New Holland vs International balers

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IsaiahJones

12-02-2007 07:48:18




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I have a question about something that was brought up in a recent post. Why is it that one no seems to like IH balers. I have a IH 430 baler and it works great. Also I have talked my dad and neighbor about these balers and they had no problems. My dad had a 445 and the neighbor had a 47. I believe the old ones like the 45, 46 and 50 maybe weren't that great. But whats the deal. I think maybe its a case of people not going by the manual and lack of maintenance. I was just wondering. Thanks for any response.

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pip4020

12-04-2007 16:33:00




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
I have been reading all the comments on IH v. NH. I personally love the NH balers me and my father custom baled hay for 27 years and wore out three NH"s. As far as how many tons per day tou can bale it all depends on if you have the hay and how long you want to bale. I have seen my father bale 2700 75 to 80 pound bales of hay per day several times with a NH 282 baler and a small ford tractor. My best with the 282 was 2200 but it can be done. The 282 was a high capacity baler rated at 95 strokes per min. thats about five baler per min. in good hay. I wish they still had those balers around. We bought a 316 to replace our 282 and i sheared a box of pins before i realized it wont bale as fast. Thje 316 is only 75 strokes per min.

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chuck bergstrom

12-03-2007 14:56:44




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
It has been mentioned that New Holland used knotters built by International. This is simply
not true. New Holland had the first automatic tie
baler. From then on balers were referred to as NH knotters or "Deering" Deering did sell to
many companies but not to New Holland. As NH
dealers we would have loved to put our own parts in the IHC. I am usually not so opinionated but
we used to sell the used IHC's to jockeys or on auction. I was making farm calls one day and came
up to an "all IHC" farm. I jumped in his 656 with
a brand new 430 baler and rode with him. In two
short rounds the baler missed 3 bales. I asked why he put up with this. He said-the dealer has
been here 3 times and the company serviceman was
here the other day. This is the best they can do.
I'll have to live with it. WOW, that is real loyalty. Just had to tell, Chuck

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tim[in]

12-03-2007 08:03:43




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
I too am in my late 40s and rode many a dusty hour on a 45 tieing bales and just wondered if guys were trying to sahove too much in them too fast or what was the problem with the knotters?I know nh uses the knotter ih developed and how it was bought by nh but was the 45 knotter the first i-h tried to develop for a self tieing baler after it had sold their good one? I never here of an older i-h baler so was the 45 the first baler for ih?

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georgeky

12-03-2007 08:52:57




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to tim[in], 12-03-2007 08:03:43  
Not sure what was their first, but as far as I know IH never sold the design to NH, like everting else patent expired and anyone could use them then. IH still used the same knotter on several newer balers. I know up until the 47, 430/440 you could get those with the McCormick knotter or IH's new All-Twine knotter. I think the last 435/445 balers even had another design on those. From the way everyone talks of the 45, I am glad I never been around one of those. Lots of folks won't even work on the All-Twine knotter, but they are simpler than the other. fewer parts to wear and adjust. No stripper to wear out the bill hook.

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IsaiahJones

12-03-2007 09:21:59




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to georgeky, 12-03-2007 08:52:57  
Thanks everyone for your imput!! Makes me feel better about my baler. But, another question is the All twine version better then the McCormick design version? My baler is an All twine model. Thanks again!



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georgeky

12-03-2007 14:57:28




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-03-2007 09:21:59  
They both work very well if propely adjusted and maintained. Myself, I do like the all twine knotter better, simply because there is a lot less adjustment to them. Keeping sharp knives is the most important thing to the all twine knotter. We have had 2 430 balers in the last 30+ years, and never had any trouble with either other than routine baler stuff. Dad traded his to a new roller in 1980, and has regreted it ever since. Mine has been kicking them out by the thousands every year since 1986. I have rebuilt the pickup from end to end twice, but no problems with rest of it. It is as good or better than any I have ever pulled.

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TomTex

12-02-2007 20:05:44




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 Hey Hugh in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
I thought Texans told all the tall tales. But, your 100 tons in a day is quite a story. That would be 3077 bales at 65 lbs per bale. Figuring a 12 hour day of baling would be 256 bales per hour or 4.3 bales per minute, or a bale every 14 seconds for 12 hours straight. And not even allowing for stopping a single minute. Now that is baling a lot of hay with a small square baler and a 35 HP tractor. Tom

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Hugh MacKay

12-03-2007 05:16:09




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to TomTex, 12-02-2007 20:05:44  
Tom: Most of those 1960s balers were rated 12 to 15 ton per hour, and some of those New Hollands would hit 20 ton quite easily. Baling hay has never been about horsepower, always had more to do with manpower, and with smart manpower I've seen guys switch wagons in under 1 minute. You find large enough windrows raked in such a way the baler is never out of hay, they will do it. I've watched my NH S-69 many times tieing 4 to 6 times per minute.

You'll also have time to enjoy a cool one around 9 pm.

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Tx Jim

12-04-2007 04:48:10




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-03-2007 05:16:09  
Hugh I have to agree with Tom, when you get started on you TALL TALES about tons/hr square baling your story gets better and better. I've baled hay with a NH 575 and It won't even get close to your story. BTW I own a H&S hi-capacity rake that in one pass can rake a windrow that no small baler could handle even here in Texas.Tx Jim



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Hugh MacKay

12-04-2007 08:29:01




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Tx Jim, 12-04-2007 04:48:10  
Jim: Get your head out of the sand. Here are some advertized production figures from IH 1968 and 1983 buyers guides. IH model 27 - 14 tons per hour, IH model 37 - 17 tons per hour, IH model 47 - 19 tons per hour, IH model 57 - 20 tons per hour, IH model 428 -15 tons per hour, IH model 435 - 17 tons per hour and IH 445 - 19 tons per hour. I don't have the figures right in front of me for New Holland, however if I feel so inclined I may just go and get them.

I know New Holland stats will be very similar with figures from 15 to 20 tons. I remember when we bought the NH S-69 new, it very easily exceeded what was advertised in the literature. We bought New Holland balers in those days because they tied better, baled faster with less hp, just generally a better all around baler. I've seen my S-69 go through 30,000 bale seasons and never miss tie a single bale. Another thing you got to remember, we were baling for 7-8 months stored feeding up in this cold country, and production damn well had to go right. Also remember we baled most of that hay in 70F to 80F degree weather, heat was not a factor on labor or equipment. That hay grew fast but it also went down hill fast once it reached bloom stage. If one wanted money making hay for dairy cows, it all had to be harvested in a week. I played the game on flat land, with quite large fields. We quite often harvested 15% moisture 4-5 ton first cut yields of alfalfa and timothy. Did you ever stop to think what it's like to bale 9' swaths that are large enough to keep most balers at at 2.5 mph. You don't go far for a load of hay, and at the end of the day our tractors have travelled a lot less miles than yours for the same amount of hay. Yes, I often baled windrows wide as an S-69 pickup, and high enough they were rubbing under pickup cross bar on top, yet the windrows were only 9' apart.

Now, if you guys don't wish to produce any faster than you do, that is your porogative. I know continental hay holds it's quality over time much better than north eastern hay. I know you have a heat factor to deal with a good part of the season. I came to YT mainly to find out how things are done in different geographic locations across North America. What I notice is a good many of you folks come here with your head in the sand and unwilling to believe it may be different 500 miles from home. I find that hard to believe especially with older Americans that went through compulsary draft, you guys saw the world. I can remember living just 50 miles outside Halifax, that place was always lousey with American sailors in the 40s, 50s, 60s even into the 70s. And those same farm boy sailors did take time to get out in the country. I sure hope you didn't travel the world blind folded.

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Tx Jim

12-05-2007 04:42:54




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-04-2007 08:29:01  
Hugh so you're saying if a manufacturer puts something in print it's FACT. Automobile manufactures state their products will get 25 mpg so they automatically will,yea right. How come no one else jumps on your soapbox and testifies to baling 20 tons/hr? I've been around all makes of hay equipment since the early 60's and I'm positive I know how to run them. Have another nice dream!!!!! !!



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Hugh MacKay

12-05-2007 06:19:08




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Tx Jim, 12-05-2007 04:42:54  
Jim: From your post I can see I've been around farm equipment longer than you. By 1975 I had laid out over a 1/2 million dollars lifetime on new or near new equipment, and that is a lot of equipment at pre 1975 prices. I only ever saw three machines that wouldn't measure up to manufacturers ratings, those being an IH 45 baler, a NH 45x mower and a Farmall 504 gasser.

Having said that, if you find yourself not capable of working smart enough to make these machines perform to rated capabilities, keep it too yourself. Don't burdon me with your problem.

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Tx Jim

12-05-2007 12:36:37




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-05-2007 06:19:08  
Hugh,first off I'm not burdening you with any problem. You've burdened your self. Who can you pay to get on your SOAPBOX with you????? ?. I could care less how much equipment you've purchased,must mean you tore up alot. You saying you've been around farm equipment longer than me doesn't mean squat cause you don't have a clue. Tx Jim



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RodInNS

12-03-2007 05:05:33




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to TomTex, 12-02-2007 20:05:44  
That's a lot of hay in one day for sure, but I wouldn't rule out that it could be done. We've got a Ford 532 baler here that in it's day would hammer out 400 bales per hour. Those were 40-50 pound bales, but that's still about 8 ton per hour by my arithmetic. That would work out to a 12.5 hour day if it held that average rate. 14-15 hours would probably bale that tonnage realistically. If a guy had the perfect storm of conditions, that could be done... It's not something I would plan on doing, but it could be done.

Rod

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Hugh MacKay

12-03-2007 08:37:00




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to RodInNS, 12-03-2007 05:05:33  
Rod: What a lot of these continental guys don't realize, is the Maritime yield in that first cutting at bloom stage. Even here in Ontario, they can't comprehend a single 9' haybine windrow driving a baler down to 2.5 mph., spitting out 4 to 6 bales per minute. It doesn't require a whole lot of travel for a wagon load. I had to put 16.9x38 tires on my 560 and 656 just to straddle those 9' windrows with a round baler.

Just prooves everything aint the biggest in Texas.

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RodInNS

12-04-2007 07:10:15




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 Re: Hey Hugh in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-03-2007 08:37:00  
Yes... most people don't comprehend the yeild we get here. I'll never forget listening to one of my profs at the AC (who was a Menonite from Ontario) talking about how we have one of the most productive forage growing climates in the world here in the maritimes. We have nearly the perfect storm of conditions to grow huge crops of very high quality forage. The only problem we have is getting the weather to take them off....

That said... you're on your own with the 20 ton per hour from those old balers. I've done the 8-10 ton per hour from our old thing and I know it's not far from it's limit doing that... and that's with a 85 hp in front, dropping the bales on the field and constant shifts and gear splits to force it 'just hard enough'. The NH would need to have a lot more feeding system to make more bales....
20 tonne per hour is pretty easy from my Claas 44S if the right person does the raking and I'm in the mood to make bales, but if a twit has done the raking or I'm daydreaming (or in a bad mood), it ain't gonna happen.
100 ton on a idiot block maker is a big day I think... but we've come very close to that here once or twice.

Rod

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johns48jdb

12-02-2007 16:27:43




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
i bailed hay fopr the public for several years anthe inside knotter to close to the edge of the bale and you had to watch how you picked them up. i use to bale at least 1000 bales a day and in one day like 11 bales bailing and hauling by hand 2000 bales. problem with most people is that their ground speed is to slow. you need to move on with a blaler. if your field is real rough rake more windors together and it want take you so long to bale and the baler really likes to be kept fead.

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Hugh MacKay

12-02-2007 19:08:12




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to johns48jdb, 12-02-2007 16:27:43  
Will 100 ton per day be pushing it hard enough, as I have baled that much on the wagon with thrower on many ocasions. It took two tractors pulling wagons to the barn and 12 men unloading. And there was only 35 hp in front of the baler.



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Hugh MacKay

12-02-2007 13:35:49




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
Isaiah: History does funny things to mankind. IH really only ever built one poor baler, that being the 45. We all know any company and model can have a lemon, however with the IH 45 they were all terrible. Many of us, now in our 60s remember the hours we spent riding the twine box of an old 45 just to tie by hand about every 10th bale. The productivity of the 45 was so bad, many a farmer threatened to go back to the old steel loose hay loader. It takes 3 generations to forget how bad that was. It was really only the 45 that caused the dislike, the 50, 55, 46, etc.were good balers.

I know in my area we had a New Holland dealer enter the market around 1957. Within 5 years he had a 5 acre bone yard of IH 45 balers. There were 45 balers in that bone yard that never baled 10,000 bales lifetime, some of them only used one season. The NH dealer told me 95% of those 45s got cut up for scrap, farmers just wouldn't match that price. In the late 50s early 60s New Holland had an edge over everyone in the baler business. Those times are not soon forgotten.

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georgeky

12-02-2007 08:02:03




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to IsaiahJones, 12-02-2007 07:48:18  
Isaiah, I can tell you from years of experience with NH and the 430 IH baler, that 430 will eat the NH. I have a 276 NH now, did have a 315 NH. Both were and are very good balers, but neither will take the hay that the 430/440 will. Dad baled many thousands of bales with a Farmall 230 and 430 baler. I still have a 430 baler that works as good as new. They do tend to have a few pick up problems after years of use and wear, but the all twine knotter is as good as they come. What the NH people don't tell you is NH balers as well as others use IH(McCormick-Deering) knotters to this day. They are not the all twine knotter, but IH none the less.

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W R

12-02-2007 14:18:56




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to georgeky, 12-02-2007 08:02:03  
The B45 worked OK in lucerne. Were not good in cereal hay,due to the spiral set up, don't recall them being to bad as far as tying, there was a lot of hay baled with them in the 50s/60s.
The NH proved to be a far better machine.



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georgeky

12-02-2007 15:25:46




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 Re: New Holland vs International balers in reply to W R, 12-02-2007 14:18:56  
I don't doubt that a bit, never used a 45 or B 45, but the 45 or B 45 is not a 430. The 430 will bale more hay than several crews can haul in. Have baled all kinds of hay with the 430 and it works very well and fast in any hay. As Hugh says, one can not pass judgement on all models for the flaws of one. As with every company, not every product is a good one. I use the IH 430 on one farm and the NH 276 on the other. Both are real machines.

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