Author	[Modern View]
Mike Cruikshank 09-30-2012 14:20:41 107.8.110.166 Report to Moderator	Was considering changing 1955 ford 600 to 12 volt being I am going to electronic instead of points. Stay with 6 volt or convert to 12 volt? [Reply]   [No Email]
crazylocha 10-02-2012 09:26:41 142.197.202.50 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Hope UD and SG (et al.) don't mind a little a newby's perspective. I don't have an EE degree. I have long hair and the thought of getting electrocuted making my hair stand up straight to look like Don King is not my idea of a good day. I have owned a cheapy meter for 15 years or so, and have learned more in the 2 years on this board than entire life. Doesn't mean I know what I am doing good portion of time, but I research, and can figure out bunches, including my current starter/solenoid issue. THANK YOU for sharing all the years of knowledge. It does help. My father IS a rocket scientist, unfortunately I am not. Dad can't figure out valves, timing, proper head torquing, etc. He takes it to whatever mechanic is convenient. Give the man a bunch of household chemicals and he can put my tractor into space, literally. Shoulda seen what he did to his gremlin wagon for a parting shot. Lots of cool ideas on how to blow things up, not a lot of mechanical training. He is and always has been a computer programmer since the warehouse sized computer days, and that is what I grew up doing. Didn't start turning a wrench until mid 20's by necessity. Was as broke as my first car was. It didn't go well. 3 head gasket changes later, and proudly changing front brake pads for the first time, the rotor disintegrated as I was putting the brake pedal to the floor at a school crossing. That fear of killing 15 kids mad me swear off being a mechanic for another 5 years. Wouldn't even own tools. Once again (second wife now) broke and van broken, marriage failed as badly as engine. One friend offered to help with head gaskets, and was merely trying to get in good with soon to be ex-wife. Didn't learn much, but got the resolve to start learning from competent people. That van ended up going to the mechanic I still use today. (friend ended up failing on both counts, Karma got him for BS job on engine, lol) That mechanic has known my Grams for 50 years now. In his conversations over the years, he has always taken the time for me to show me anything I did not understand he was explaining. He yells at me deservedly when I am in over my head with something that I should have asked first about. If it comes in on a tow truck, the cussing begins and doesn't end for weeks (or months, remember that time...). At least I have learned to wear clothes that I know I can get greasy in, cuz he's going to make me fix whatever I did wrong, or else he charges me double labor if I don't. I'm not afraid to get greasy now. I swallow any sign of ego and have him double check my work, even if it doesn't need it. Am getting better, but still not ready for ASE certification. I am proud to call him my friend and mechanic for over 20 years. His eyes have lit up ever since I bought this tractor, and he enjoys everything I bring to have him help me with. Most times I have done myself alone at the farm. Alone is a complicated word, in this respect. I do have a smart phone and spend plenty of time with my manual on my lap reading threads. I look at things, try to make sure I am moving in right direction, and proceed carefully. So far, so decently. I can get my top cover off and rebuild easily now, through my trials and tribulations with hydro pump. Yes, Virgil (my mechanic) did the pump rebuild for me, he couldn't wait for my day off to play with it (he had a new toy). The rest I learned through the shared knowledge here how easy hydraulics are, and how to adjust, track down, and repair what is needed. I did it myself, and am proud of it, but then again, I got there because others shared. Piece by piece, am learning just what is needed as it breaks/has issues. This tractor has been equally frustrating and joyful. Knowing I have the friends here to ask has been only reason haven't given up on farm and tractor. Lack of knowledge, understanding, and previous experience leads me to my dark place most people call fear. Once that fear gets a grip, it is hard to get out. Its getting easier to kick out the door. The margin of error financially is non existent on my Wally paycheck. Scraped together enough macaroni n cheese dinners and lunches to replace my solenoid and battery cables. Got everything back together, and starter is shot. Tractor has to sit for week until I figure out what I can do. Scrape together enough and took it to best starter/alternator man in county. Almost as much as new one, but heck of a lot more confidant about him than cheapy import. Yes I will do my best next time to rebuild myself, wasn't in a good place for this round. I still have my self doubts and fears with screwing up electrical stuff. I could have probably handled just starter drive unit, but armature and all were fried. Little more time and confidence, when I have more leeway, and I am all about it. If I get this promotion, extra $2/hr will help bunches. Fingers, toes, and whatever else I can find are crossed. Wish me luck. Many of you have the "knack". Some of us are just doing best we can with what we have. Yes I am a converted to diagnose and trace before throwing $$ at. Many of us who read more than we post are learning. Just bear with us. Sometimes we need that knowledge in your little pinky, its a ton more than some of us have. [Reply]  [No Email]
oldtanker 10-02-2012 09:24:01 66.228.255.239 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Sound while on most tractors I agree that IE is an expensive (not really, 125 bucks ain't much) thing to get rid of points. But on a front mount I think it's the best thing sense the side mount came out. All of my tractors except the one I picked up in Aug have at least 80-100 hours on em this year. That"s a 1206 Farmall Diesel, Farmall M and my Ford 8N, front mount, 12V IE (I'm really liking the IE after about 20 hours on it, it's installed on a fresh rebuild engine). If not for the very dry weather it would have been more. After buying to new good quality battery charger this year I'm done with 6 Volt. Both chargers are 12 Volt only. So to me, if trying to keep something looking stock, I'd convert the genny to 12. You also live in a very warm area compared to UD and I. We can and have seen -50F and colder here (not often or I'd live next door to you). I've never seen a 6 Volt system tractor start easy below about -10, just too cold making the starter pull enough amps just to turn the engine that there is nothing left over for spark. I remember farmers here building fire under their tractors that they needed to run because they were too cheap to put a heater on it. Plug in block/tank/lower hose heaters are the norm here, not the exception, even on our cars and trucks. Believe me you don't want to be cold fingering points at -20! Heated shops here are a thing of envy! I hope to have a heated shop by next winter! LOL you can't stop working on a tractor here at -10 if you are working outside.......yer frooze to the ground! Rick [Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy 10-02-2012 11:12:11 184.227.222.118 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to oldtanker, 10-02-2012 09:24:01   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see sounds like a good reason to convert to 12v.. though I didn't see alot in there to support an EI. you mention front mount.. I do realize they take a few minutes to remove andd reinstall. if i were to go 12v on a front mount i think i'd also go round can coil conversion. again.. on the ei vs points? if the ei strts better in -50f and that's where I was.. i guess thats thee way to go while i put my house up for sale to move to some place tht was not -50 soundguy [Reply]  [No Email]
W_B 10-02-2012 07:10:28 155.188.247.24 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to soundguy, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Even my cheapo China-made engine (12V electrics) in my utility vehicle has EI. Just sayin'. I'm no fan of something I can't fix without expensive parts swapping, but EI does seem to have some significant advantages, when it works. The 12V conversion makes a lot of sense too, seriously thinking about doing it to both my worker 9N and 8N, getting tired of running to get something 12V that will start them. They run great when started but probably getting too tired for all the standard ignition fixes to work very long, then it's back to getting a jump start. [Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy 10-02-2012 07:36:45 184.245.14.10 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to W_B, 10-02-2012 07:10:28   for anyone that goes ei.. i would deffinately go 12v first... 6v and ei is too close to logic level voltage.. add in a weak bat, dragging starter or whatnot.. and no spark... [Reply]  [No Email]
sotxbill 10-02-2012 06:57:06 99.42.196.210 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to soundguy, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see EI can and do have something called "dwell extender" so the coil gets a better charge at the same rpm.. The result is a hotter spark. EI also keeps the spark hotter at high rpms where a conventional lowers the spark at higher rmps. The early ei's had a bypass switch on them to return them to conventional and worked with points. Simply turning the EI to on, would increase the rpms by 200 rpms at idle. Thats a pretty good demo of what EI does for the coil with the extended dwell. EI also kept the spark hot under lower voltage conditions such as cranking and idleing. Plugs stayed cleaner, combustion chambers stayed cleaner and unburnt hydrocarbons decreased. The the points removal... stopped the timing variations due to points gap changes. Stopped the high resistances/ low spark due to bad contact resistance, stopped the shorting due to moisture due to rainy days. Also the oil stayed cleaner, longer. So all of the above is a nice feature to have. EI also allows a better spark advance curve for more power. Even lawn mowers now have EI. [Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy 10-02-2012 07:25:50 184.245.14.10 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to sotxbill, 10-02-2012 06:57:06   no arguments about some of the benefits of ei in general practical terms. especially timing changes with wear. to counter that... wear can be reduced to almost nothing if you lube the cam lobe. proper gaskets can keep the water out. how many hours do the average antique tractor see a year? for a automobile.. I see CLEAR advantages of ei.. for a tractor you start up.. set to pto rpms and go... not as much ;) [Reply]  [No Email]
NoNewParts 10-02-2012 05:36:49 67.240.145.25 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Danny P., 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see like others have said, to answer this question directly, if you are going EI, make it 12v. lots of good pro/con here I'm a 12v guy with most being 12V, but do have a few 6V tractors. a 650 with a good 6V charging system and battery (I'm much too cheap to change something that works, and never mess with something that isn't 'broke') I also have a couple magneto equipped Farmalls that I prefer the 6V to slow down the cranking speed, so the impulse works properly [Reply]  [No Email]
oldtanker 10-01-2012 08:20:06 66.228.255.239 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Everything I own is now 12 volt.S Ultradog says compatibility! I did convert one to IE. I'm loving it. All of my tractors start well but the IE starts the easiest. Rick [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 10-01-2012 10:54:08 184.233.69.114 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to oldtanker, 10-01-2012 08:20:06   IMHO.. if EI is starting 'more reliably' on a set of otherwise -engine- comparable machines.. then the points machine needs attention... just my 2 cents soundguy [Reply]  [No Email]
John in la 10-01-2012 20:04:32 184.38.173.132 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to soundguy, 10-01-2012 10:54:08   And that is why people switch to EI Point machines always need attention. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 10-02-2012 05:42:13 184.245.14.10 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to John in la, 10-01-2012 20:04:32   i wouldn't say that is an absolute. you live in LA and I in florida. both wet states. if anyone should see points issues.. it would be us. I have to remind myself to clean and regap and rubbing block lube my points at yearly oil changes.. why? because they don't need attention. I walk out.. turn on the gas, hit the button with a tug of choke and go. Only time I have to dink with points is usually on a new bring home and that is to get rid of the , probably, tisco, ones that came with it.. or if I have put the tractor up inthe barn for storage.. IE.. drained fuel, removed battery.. etc, and then left to set for years.. etc. on those I might have to dink with points. my regulars.. that get used and have batteries in them... not much goes on other than greasing and oil checking before use. My honest, gut reaction, is most people simply don't understand how to install, gap and check a set of points. they either forget to lube the rubbing block and it wears out.. or they buy the cheapest set they can, or they use dirty tools.. greasy feeler gauges.. which in turn, makes the poitns burn, and then they file them.. or heck.. probably sand them. once sanded, IMHO.. points are ruined. a light honing with a true ignition hone, cutting square, just a pass or so.. usually doesn't remove all the hard coating.. sanding however leaves scratches and grit.. which leads tomore arcing. setting gaps too close will lead to arcing as well. I caught my mechanic setting points on a machine out in the yard with a matchbook cover. i measured it.. .012 on a machine wanting .020 sure it started and ran.. but it burned the points up and he has to dink with them every time the need tht engine started. cause and effect. just my 2 cents anyway. I've got nothing against the ei as a concept... just they are a tad spendy.. and i think some people jump to them for the wrong reasons.. or at least.. for insufficient reasons. installing a 100-150$ ei because you can't wipe your feeler gauge on a cloth seems to be a bad reason to me.. :) just saying.. soundguy [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 10-02-2012 06:36:19 174.20.253.54 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to soundguy, 10-02-2012 05:42:13   Soundguy, I aint trying to start an argument with you but maybe you can answer this for me. We see a lot of guys who spend a pile of dough "restoring" their old tractor. Fancy paint, lots of expensive original lights, draw bars, doo dads and gew gaws. Worse yet are engines being sent off to the machine shop for $1500 rebuilds when they still have years of life left in them - same thing with tires. But rarely do I hear anyone complain about that or saying the owner has "insufficient reason" to spend his money how he wants to. It's always the guy who spends $125 for EI that gets the ridicule. It's the guy who doesn't wish to mess with his points who is lazy or a dummy or a spendthrift and catches the ire of people like yourself. Any idea why? [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 10-02-2012 07:26:08 184.245.14.10 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Ultradog MN, 10-02-2012 06:36:19   IDea why? here's a list. and no.. I'm not trying to argue either. I'm not one of those t=guys that tells somebody to rip their head off for a looksee before any tsting. I'm not one of those guys that reccomends a 1500$ overhaul just because thiir N comp is right at minimum.. or even a hair low. I usually do the opposite and tell them if they need 10 more cheap years out of her to ream the ridge, hone the cyls, re- ring , and hit her with new bearings of the same size as you know they will fit. and a hand lap on the valves, set of head, vc and oil pan gaskets and you are good to go for a couple hundred bucks, work done in your backyard in a day. I'm also not one of those guys that does a 'car' 800$ paint job. I use nason syn enamil, and older alkyd or acrilix modded alkyd enamils usually in the 25-50$ a gallon price range, and use a variety of cheap paint guns that havn't costed over 30$. as with any paint job..lots of elbow work is what counts. my 50$ a gallon paint out of a 30$ gun usually comes out darn good looking. most of my tractor live under no cover.. or only top cover with open sides. that cheap paint is going on 12 years on some machines. a wash and wax/buff and it looks great. for something that drives thru brush and weeds.. i don't want 800$ of paint onthem. I also do all my own body work, an 99.999% of my own repairs. 12v conversions? I've done them, and have them.. I also have 6v machines and machines i;ve converted BACK to 6v on, after getting them on 12. I'm a big fan of 'if it works, don't fix it'. if i have a good running 6v machine... i leave it 6v. if I have a 6v machine that needs a 80$ genny rebuild and a 40 $ regulator and a 65$ battery.. then i set and thik about it... an autozone alternator cost me 32$ And I've sure hung them. Last 3 tractors I did got them. I've also done 12v conversions using a genny.. most recently from a 12v genny i got from rickB on a 950. If someone is going thru the 800$ paint job and 1500$ engine rebuild and aiming for a restoration... then why not go back points? the engine is perfect.. should start with half a rev. no need for that extra expense the way I look at it... and it'f it's a true restoration.. it wouldn't have had ei back in the 50's lastly... the maintenance and experience one needs for the care and feeding and repair of their tractor are some pretty basic concepts. even on the electrical side. IMHO.. you should be able to care for the electrical system and keep points going.. have those skills, before you get ei. take a guy that doesn't have the know-how to keep his poitns based machine running and then throw ei at him. we see tose messages all the time. some person that cant run 2 wires. same skill set that lets you clean and gap points are needed to keep that 12v system running.. just slightly different application. I've helped buddies put ei in their machines. I usually ask them if they can maintain their breaker contacts first.. and then show them how if they don't know. the 'mess with points' issue.. IMHO.. is bad handling practice. I don't 'mess with points' i go start my tractors and use them. I do, if I remmeber, clean and regp them and lube the block at oil change. that's not asking alot. samew as cleaning bat connections and grounds at oil change. should do that ei or not. takes what? 5 mintues to pull some paper thru a set of points and squirt some lube ont he rubbing block and throw a feeler in between them? probably need to own a diesel or a new machine if 5 minutes a year with a feeler gauge scares somebody... if they lack the skill to do that simple task.. they also lack the skill to do other repair and maintenance tasks. and if someone chooses to own an old tractor.. they might as well at least be able to work on them. most guys i know own an old machine to svae money. no money savings if you don't try and learn about them and fix them yourself. the money savings on buing a 3000$ machine will quickly disipate if yuo have to call a mechanic out every time it makes an odd noise. soundguy [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 10-01-2012 19:10:05 174.20.253.54 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to soundguy, 10-01-2012 10:54:08   Have you ever had EI in a tractor Soundguy? [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 10-02-2012 05:42:51 184.245.14.10 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Ultradog MN, 10-01-2012 19:10:05   Yes. have and DO have currently. How else could I make the comparisons? This post was edited by souNdguy at 05:44:30 10/02/12. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 10-01-2012 06:54:03 184.246.206.52 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   how's she start and run on 6v? here's my advice. if she starts and runs great, and charges, and battery is new / serviceable.. I'd probbaly not change anything. That said.. IF you are determined to go to EI.. then i would go to 12v first. get the 12v conversion running good on points.. THEN do the ei. don't try to do them together... [Reply]  [No Email]
W_B 10-01-2012 06:15:11 155.188.247.19 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to mudcat249, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   I have to jump start both my 9N and 8N on 12V and use my cheapy (relatively, I paid as much for it as I did the 8N!)) MTD-made riding mower to jump them. Seriously considering going to 12V on both, a re-build isn't in the cards and I need them available to do the work I need done, especially dumping the manure spreader a couple of times a week through the winter. [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 09-30-2012 17:54:22 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Steckmeyer, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Depends on your reason for converting IMHO. A 12 volt conversion will not fix low compression or bad connections. Although it has been known to make bad connections smoke and/or burn so you know where they are! UltraDog has compelling reasons for changing, he also has a short list of why not to. You also have the option of converting to 12 volts and leaving the original points. I would take this option first if you decide to convert. Get the conversion done, charging system working and run it a while. Then once you're sure all is working put in the EI if you want to. Hey Dawg, if you're reading, I converted one of mine this weekend too. My reason? It's my snow plow tractor. Always starts and runs fine, but I toyed with the idea of brighter lights, then I got a good deal on a 12 volt salt spreader. :) Now if I could just convert my F20 to "volts". That hand crank battery's getting weak! [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 09-30-2012 18:23:41 174.20.253.54 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Royse, 09-30-2012 17:54:22   Old made the point too below - if it's starting and running good now well then darn well leave it alone. If the generator needs replaced? Or ... it's getting nowadays with the price of 6V batteries - shudder - you can almost do a conversion with 10si alt, walmart 12v battery and DIY brackets for the price of a 6V battery. 5 years and the next battery you put in her you'll be money well ahead. As for points/EI? I personally don't care much one way or another. I can make good spark. Front mount N or a 3 cyl gasser where it's a pia to do the points yeah I'd much rather have EI and not have to monkey with them. Side mount N or Hundred is pretty easy to wipe yer points with sears catalogue, toilet paper, grocery bag, dollar bill or whatever you have a couple of times a year too. [Reply]  [No Email]
old 09-30-2012 18:35:57 209.86.226.19 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Ultradog MN, 09-30-2012 18:23:41   Big reason I do the 12 volt thing is simple. I only need one size battery and it fits every thing I own. That way I can pull the battery out of my car or truck or what ever and use it in any thing other then the motorcycles we have. Shoot I have even started up an old 8N with a lawn mower battery and ran it that way [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 09-30-2012 14:56:19 174.20.253.54 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Mike, There's constant squabbling on these boards about 6V vs 12V. I'm a 12V advocate and made up a list of what I think are good reasons to go 12 volt. *12V spins your engine much faster and starts it better in all conditions, especially if it is very cold outside or if the engine has marginal compression. *12V with an alternator is more reliable and uses a solid state VR instead of an old fashioned system of points, coils and electromagnets to regulate the charging voltage. Solid state is better, more accurate, more dependable. *12V is more forgiving of dirty contacts and connections on/in the entire wiring harness. *12v is the industry standard and has been for 50 years. *12v allows you to run sprayer pumps, flashing lights, winches and a host of other modern accessories on your tractor. *12V lights are brighter. *A 12v alternator will easily put out more amps than an old fashioned generator and vr. *An alternator will charge at an idle. Generator generally will not. *A 12v system is safer. For example, Most people know how to jump a 12v negative ground car, truck or tractor. Not many people know how to safely jump a 6v positive ground tractor with a 12 battery without something exploding in their faces. *6v requires bigger, harder to find wires and cables throughout the system. *12v batteries are to be found just about anywhere, are cheaper than 6v and are usually maintenance free. *12v lets you use electronic ignition easily. * And last but not least, is this your only 6V machine? What kind of battery is in your boat or motorcycle, your RV, your classic car or even your 4 wheeler or snowmobile if you have them? Why have an odd ball battery that can't jump or be jumped by anything else? [Reply]  [No Email]
Ed H.-OH 09-30-2012 16:02:59 72.23.247.131 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Ultradog MN, 09-30-2012 14:56:19   Ultradog, Hello, 12 volts get my vote,I,ve had an old ferguson for 30 years, Run it on 6 volt, then 8 then 12 in the last few years, and i could kick myself for not switching to 12 v sooner.- cheers-ed [Reply]  [No Email]
old 09-30-2012 14:55:51 209.86.226.32 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   Many factor come into play with going either way. #1 if it starts and run well on 6 volts and the charging system works then stay with it. #2 if you are needing to do major work on the charging system and it starts hard on 6 volts switch it out since going 12 volts a lot of times is cheaper then fixing the 6 volt system. My self I switch to 12 volts so I can use the same battery in any thing I have and be done with it. But I do own 10 plus tractors and a few cars and trucks so batteries can be one of the problems I have [Reply]  [No Email]
36 coupe 09-30-2012 14:46:18 66.186.169.176 Report to Moderator	Re: 12 Volt or keep 6 volt in reply to Mike Cruikshank, 09-30-2012 14:20:41   My 6 volt 640 starts up when I have a job for it.Tell me why I should spend lots of money on a Dufus 12 volt conversion.Just read on all the problems they have. [Reply]  [No Email]