Author	[Modern View]
crm88 08-20-2012 13:15:47 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	I've had this tractor for about a year now. I put a new 6v battery on this winter, new wiring harness, new plugs, new cap and wires. Starting the tractor has always been hit or miss. Sometimes it will fire right up with a brief choke. Usually though I have to crank it 5 - 10 times to get it to catch and turn over. Even after the new wiring harness, new battery, plugs, etc. and checking all of the connections, it would still start hard. It started up Sun AM instantly but I haven't been able to get it going since. I have had a few coughs and sputters but it won't turn over. Feels like the battery is losing it's charge with all the cranking so I took it off to charge it. I can smell gas, so it feels like it is not getting a spark. Any thoughts? A separate issue is if you shut the tractor off when it is hot it won't start again until it is cool. Some kind of vapor lock. It does this everytime I use it. Did it for the previous owner too. Any thoughts on getting this to turn over? Thanks! [Reply]   [No Email]
Larry NCKS 08-30-2012 15:27:20 64.254.59.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Al Walker, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   Big cables did not aggravate the problem, unless they're faulty thenselves. If they're getting hot, I'd guess you've got a starter pulling a heck of a load for some reason or still a connection porblem. This post was edited by Larry NCKS at 15:28:02 08/30/12. [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 09-05-2012 16:47:22 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Larry NCKS, 08-30-2012 15:27:20   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Update The new 00 cable connection at the relay was touching metal and shorting. Reconnected and fixed that problem. My plan was to put on new 00 cables, new condenser, new points and new coil one at a time to see where the problem was. Well put on the cables, fixed the short and still no start. Opened up the distributor, cleaned it and put in new condenser. I left the old points in for now. Went to start it and it fired up instantly. I then ran it for while, let it warm up and tried to start it again. It wouldn't start. It would crank but not start. I then replaced the coil. The tractor started right up cold. I ran it for a while grading my driveway, got it pretty warm. Shut if off and it started right up. The new coil seems to have fixed what I thought was a vapor lock problem. The tractor now starts hot or cold instantly!!! So looks like a new condenser and coil fixed my problems!?!?! King Tut, you may want to look at a new coil if you have starting problems when the tractor is hot. Thanks for all the info guys! [Reply]  [No Email]
King Tut 09-07-2012 19:32:15 174.124.11.140 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 09-05-2012 16:47:22   cmr88, I had previously replaced the coil, still had a problem. Replaced the condenser. This cured the starting problem cold. I am still not sure about starting hot. I have been out of town, but will be returning shortly. But I think we have found the problem. I think it was a double whamy. both the coil and condenser. Let"s hope/ [Reply]  [No Email]
King Tut 08-24-2012 15:30:04 64.135.202.148 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   [quote="crm88"](reply to post at 03:54:13 08/23/12) [/quote] I finally got the new condenser installed. Part # FET12300A. After I installed it I had # 4 cylinder spark plug wire disconnected, and had a spark tester installed on the plug wire. As I started to crank the engine over it startled me by starting on three cylinders. Did not choke it or anything else. I have not had it out and working long enough to get it good and hot to see if that problem is cured. But starting cold seems to be cured. It will probably be a couple days before I get around to working it long enough to get it hot, but will let you know what the results are when I do. Think I got it, but still not ready to celebrate. [Reply]  [No Email]
Larry NCKS 08-23-2012 05:15:00 64.254.59.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to DollarBill, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   still sounds like coil to me. [Reply]  [No Email]
showcrop 08-23-2012 06:08:10 76.179.97.70 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Larry NCKS, 08-23-2012 05:15:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Sounds like coil to me as well. [Reply]  [No Email]
King Tut 08-22-2012 20:13:41 64.135.202.148 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   [quote="Keith Williams"](reply to post at 18:10:51 08/22/12) [/quote] I understand what you are saying. However the battery is new and fully charged. It has brand new Cables. I have a battery Charger that has a boost setting ( I believe 200 amp) that does not have a 6 volt setting when clicking on boost. So when I click on the boost it is sending 12 volts. Also when the engine is hot, after running about an hour and I shut it off it will not start, and has no spark until after it cools down after about 1/2 hour. The starter seems to spin over at normal speed when hot so I do not believe I have a starter problem. I have had this tractor for several years, and this problem just started this year. Still working on it [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 08-23-2012 03:54:13 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to King Tut, 08-22-2012 20:13:41   I understand what you are saying. However the battery is new and fully charged. It has brand new Cables. I have a battery Charger that has a boost setting ( I believe 200 amp) that does not have a 6 volt setting when clicking on boost. So when I click on the boost it is sending 12 volts. Also when the engine is hot, after running about an hour and I shut it off it will not start, and has no spark until after it cools down after about 1/2 hour. The starter seems to spin over at normal speed when hot so I do not believe I have a starter problem. I have had this tractor for several years, and this problem just started this year. Still working on it[/quote:05cc07474c] Does anyone have a good source for 0 or 00 cables? I ordered the relay to starter cable from Tractor Parts Inc., they had the correct part# 14431 and it is for a 6volt battery but it is a 2ga cable. They actually don't specify cable size on their site, so I'm guessing they are all 2ga. The vapor lock situation is exactly as tut describes. Whenever you shut the tractor down hot is will not start again until it cools down. Has done this everytime I have used it for long periods. When I got the tractor it had an 8v battery in it which the previous owner put in to help get it started. Next step upgrade cables, check and clean all connections, charge battery and try to start??? [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 08-22-2012 17:49:32 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Kurt-NEPA, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeAny time they start just as you release the start button, that means that the spark in not adequate while starter is drawing down the voltage. Reasons include weak battery, bad/dirty connections, bad or under size cables, bad starter drawing too much current. Power your ignition AND your starter from two separate batteries as a trial & verify what I said. [Reply]  [No Email]
Keith Williams 08-22-2012 18:10:51 24.142.137.38 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to JMOR, 08-22-2012 17:49:32   Jmor, Exactly right! We were composing the same ideas at the same time! PS this is the exact reason my 1964 Ford 4000 is now a 12 volt machine. When you need it to start, I want it to start not fight with it. 6 volts are OK, but when it's below zero and you are fighting every thing else to get it started why not make it easy?? Keith [Reply]  [No Email]
King Tut 08-22-2012 17:39:18 64.135.202.148 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I have the exact same problem on my 1962 Ford Industrial 2000. Cold starting is hit or miss. Will not start Hot, until it has cooled back down. Since it would not start hot I replaced the coil with a new 6 volt. Problem still existed. I took out the points in the distributor and filed them down. Spun over engine to check spark, and no spark. I did notice just as I was releasing push button I got a one time spark. I tried this several more times, and the same thing, a one time spark just as I was releasing starter push button. Put everything back together, and tractor started just as I was releasing push button. I now realize that it has been doing this right along. The starting just as I am releasing starter button. I have not replaced the condenser in the distributor. I plan on doing that next. As far as not starting hot I know it is not fuel, because I removed the Hose between the air cleaner and the carburetor. With it removed and using the choke I see fuel dripping out of the Carburetor. Just wondering if you have found a cure yet. Still working on it. [Reply]  [No Email]
Keith Williams 08-22-2012 18:01:43 24.142.137.38 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to King Tut, 08-22-2012 17:39:18   King Tut, What you are seeing is a classic case of low voltage. When the starter is turning the voltage is too low to produce a spark. When you release the button the voltage rises and produces a spark. If the engine is spinning fast enough at that point off she goes. If not you just get a pop or nothing. You need to get the connections clean and bright. Battery charged and starter running fast to get her going. A worn out engine makes the problem even worse. The other solution is 12 volts. Keith [Reply]  [No Email]
Brad_bb 08-22-2012 14:54:44 12.161.8.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   I also found this on the web when looking up how to test a Ford Tractor Coil: "Coils can not be tested with 100 percent accuracy. A coil can test good on the bench but have an intermittent open (break in a coil) that only opens when the coil is up to operating temperature. Certain IB issues may also be exacerbated by heat and not be readily apparent on a bench test. In essence, a coil can be tested as bad with confidence but not tested as good because of these issues. The best way to insure that a coil is good is to test other components in the system such as the coil wire, battery connections and associated wiring as well to eliminate them as a factor. Another good test is to have a 'known-good' coil to temporarily install and test run." http://www.ehow.com/how_5711889_check-out-tractor-ignition-coils.html This is one possibility for my problem. Could be for you too? This post was edited by Brad_bb at 14:56:15 08/22/12. [Reply]  [No Email]
Brad_bb 08-22-2012 14:46:33 12.161.8.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   I definitely believe we should eliminate one thing at a time. If you go and replace multiple components, and it fixes it, you'll never know which was the problem. You want to know. Just as I wrote a starting procedure for you, now I am having a problem with my tractor. A couple days a go when I mowed, my 55 Ford 960 died on me several times, an not while under load. It just straight up shuts off without a sputter, as if I turned the key off, but I didn't. I could have an obstruction and not enough fuel flow. I could be flooding. I'm not sure. But I also want to inspect my points and test my coil. I suggest that you test your coil as well in order to rule it out. I think my tractor has a 12V coil (even though the tractor is a 6V system). If you've got a cylindrical shaped coil, it's probably 12V. I'm not sure of the resistance spec for this coil when measured across the postive and negative terminals. I'll have to make a new post for that. I also re-read your original post where you mention vapor lock. But if your tractor is cold and doesn't want to start, it cannot be vapor lock. According to wiki: "It occurs when the liquid fuel changes state from liquid to gas while still in the fuel delivery system. This disrupts the operation of the fuel pump, causing loss of feed pressure to the carburetor or fuel injection system, resulting in transient loss of power or complete stalling. Restarting the engine from this state may be difficult. The fuel can vaporize due to being heated by the engine, by the local climate or due to a lower boiling point at high altitude. In regions where higher volatility fuels are used during the winter to improve the starting of the engine, the use of "winter" fuels during the summer can cause vapor lock to occur more readily." We don't have a fuel pump. Our engines are fed by gravity. The fuel line can get heated from the exhaust manifold if touching or too close. Most of us have a clear sediment bowl right before the carb, and if you're seeing liquid there, I find it less likely to be gaseous in the fuel line. It definitely would not be when cold. Another question, have you changed any carb adjustment since it was running ok? [Reply]  [No Email]
Brad_bb 08-22-2012 07:59:30 12.161.8.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   You're problem is going to be air, fuel, or spark. You can buy a spark tester at most decent autoparts stores, I think Lisle tools sells the one I have. It has an end like a spark plug that you plug into your spark plug wire. The other end has an aligator clip that you clip to ground(on your engine). It has an adjustable gap in the tool. Plugs are another good indicator. First use compressed air to blow any debris away from the base of your plugs (so nothing falls or gest sucked into the cylinders). Then I'd recommend pulling your plugs and inspecting them. Does the electrode look wet, or full of black carbon, or white-ish? Crank your engine with the plugs out and verify that no liquid goes shooting out. One problem that many of these Fords have is the needle sticking open and fuel filing the carb, then the intake, and then into any cylinder that has an intake valve open. When this happens, and then you crank the engine, it forces this liquid fuel past the rings and into the crankcase with your oil(Check your dipstick also to verify that it's just oil in your crankcase). Then you need an oil change. This can happen if you leave the fuel valve open, or even via a leaky fuel valve that doesn't close completely. If you don't have this issue, great. Clean your plugs with a wire brush and re-install them. Now you know that you have proper spark, and you have clean plugs, and your cylinders are not flooded. Another think that I ran into in the past is a vacuum leak (air). My intake manifold was loose. Verify that your intake bolts are at the correct torque. also check your carb to intake manifold nuts for proper torque. After you get the tractor runnning, you'll check further for vacuum leak by spraying carb cleaner around the gasket area and note if the running engine increases in RPM. Now you are ready to try and start the tractor. I would disconnect the intake tube from the carburator. I then use my hand over the carb intake so that I can manually vary the amount of choke. Note: A vacuum leak can can cause you to need a lot of choke in order to start the engine. You can vary the amount of choke to try and start the tractor. Let know how it goes. I'm not going to address carb adjustment here, because you said it was running, and we should only do one thing at a time. It's a little trickier to explain carb adjustment, and you don't want to fool with that until it's running, especially if it has been starting. Another note: With my tractor, the carb needle doesn't always close properly, especially if the tractor has sat without running for more than a couple weeks. I therfore disconnect the intake to carb tube from the carb while parked. It's indoors where I'm not worried about bugs or a mouse getting into it. If I forget to do this, I may have some liquid fuel sitting at that connection, making for hard or no starting(until I drain it). I have had this issue for many years. I've changed the needle and seat a number of times. I'm not sure if it's a function of ethanol in the gas, or just a quirk with this carb. [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 08-22-2012 14:01:21 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Brad_bb, 08-22-2012 07:59:30   Brad, the first plug closest to front was a little wet, 2nd plug from front was full of black carbon, third and fourth from front were whitish. I did not get any liquid shooting out when I cranked with no plugs in. I tested spark again. It is bluish white, but a lot weaker than what ultradog posted, maybe half that. Not sure what to do next. Is it worth putting new points and condenser in, since I have not done that yet? Thanks Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see [Reply]  [No Email]
David G 08-21-2012 18:41:34 64.134.172.200 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   2 GA is way to small for 6V [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 08-30-2012 14:16:59 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to David G, 08-21-2012 18:41:34   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Ok, upgraded the two battery cables and the relay to starter cable to 00 gage. Now when I go to start the solenoid just clicks and the battery and start cables are warm to the touch. I have checked and redid connections a few times and it still just clicks. I will go through and recheck all electrical connections again. Could it be a bad starter or relay drawing too many amps? Would the bigger cables have made that problem worse? Or is it most likely a loose wire somewhere??? Thanks [Reply]  [No Email]
Larry NCKS 08-21-2012 14:06:31 64.254.59.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to James Jr., 08-20-2012 13:15:47   2 ga is too light. Need at least 0. What kinda spark? Just because you got a spark to jump 1/4" does not tell us much. Needs to be crisp bright blue and a good blue spark will jump a lot more than a 1/4". Red or orange colored is no good. [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 08-21-2012 15:43:46 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Larry NCKS, 08-21-2012 14:06:31   Larry, the spark is a bluish white. Definitely not red or orange. Still not getting a big jump , less than 1/4". [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 08-22-2012 06:50:42 70.57.147.96 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-21-2012 15:43:46   [Reply]  [No Email]
showcrop 08-20-2012 18:39:26 75.67.231.80 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   When it is cold it will need a LOT of gas to start. As in if it doesn't fire while choked for about three revs the gas should be dribbling out of the intake. Remove the tube so that you can see. Just a smell of gas is not an indication of enough. [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 08-20-2012 15:12:41 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to andy41372, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   old said: (quoted from post at 17:52:01 08/20/12) #1 your terms are not correct and make it hard to help you. If it cranks then yep it turns over just does not run it has to turn over or the engine is locked up. That said you need to do the basic trouble shooting. Check for a good blue white spark and also make sure it jumps a 1/4 inch gap. As one of the other guys said the battery cable need to be big as in 0 or 00 cables. If you smell gas you have flooded it and fouled the plugs. Try a set of auto lite 437 plugs in it they are a bit hotter and burn this crap gas we have now days My first thought was kind of like yours old, but my mind is a bit more off-beat: Some ask how to jump their tractor too: This post was edited by JMOR at 15:42:26 08/20/12. [Reply]  [No Email]
old 08-20-2012 14:52:01 209.86.226.40 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   #1 your terms are not correct and make it hard to help you. If it cranks then yep it turns over just does not run it has to turn over or the engine is locked up. That said you need to do the basic trouble shooting. Check for a good blue white spark and also make sure it jumps a 1/4 inch gap. As one of the other guys said the battery cable need to be big as in 0 or 00 cables. If you smell gas you have flooded it and fouled the plugs. Try a set of auto lite 437 plugs in it they are a bit hotter and burn this crap gas we have now days [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 08-20-2012 14:23:24 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to RBnSC, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see "I wish I was clarivoyant enought to use my sense of feeling to diagnose tractors?? Have you tried sensitivity training? :twisted: [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 08-20-2012 16:45:03 184.246.193.72 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to JMOR, 08-20-2012 14:23:24   tried it once... didn't take aparrently. i think my give a 'darn' is still busted.. :) ;) but.... my tractors do start.. :) [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg1959 08-20-2012 15:34:31 69.176.13.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to JMOR, 08-20-2012 14:23:24   Or just let the FORCE guide you, young Luke! [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 08-20-2012 16:43:59 184.246.193.72 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Greg1959, 08-20-2012 15:34:31   LMAO! [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 08-20-2012 14:20:56 184.247.13.43 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to crm88, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   hmm.. so you 'feel' like it's not getting spark. I wish I was clarivoyant enought to use my sense of feeling to diagnose tractors?? I have to resort to time tested things like troubleshooting and observation. IE.. CHECKING the spark. check spark.. if spark = bad back track and make sure all ignition components are in top shape. post back your observations. ( No feelings please ). [Reply]  [No Email]
Larry NCKS 08-20-2012 13:29:44 64.254.59.123 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Ultradog MN, 08-20-2012 13:15:47   Surely with all that you gave it new points and condensor too ????? Not starting hot is indicative of failed coil or condensor. However you need to do some basic trouble shooting. With it being 6 volt, your battery cables need to be heavy, like O gauge. They also need to be in A1 shape. Check your spark! Will it jump a quarter to half inch gap at the plugs and is it nice crisp blue? Ignition switches have also been known to be problematic on these. If the fire test proves out, get back to us and we'll talk about fueling issues. [Reply]  [No Email]
Ultradog MN 08-20-2012 16:55:18 65.103.0.101 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Larry NCKS, 08-20-2012 13:29:44   Good answer Larry. As a starting point VERIFY that it has a bluish white spark that will jump a good 3/8". [Reply]  [No Email]
crm88 08-21-2012 13:35:57 216.66.123.141 Report to Moderator	Re: 860 cranks but won't turn over in reply to Ultradog MN, 08-20-2012 16:55:18   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Ok, thanks for all the replies. First tractor I've owned and not too mechanically inclined so bear with me... More info - the plugs I put in this winter are the autolite 437. The cable from the battery to the starter is new and 2ga. Can't tell the gauge of the ground cable, not marked, was on the tractor when I got it, been looking for a new 2ga wire at local auto parts store but no luck. Tested the spark today. I did get a spark, definitely didn't get a 3/8-1/2" jump, but I got maybe a 1/4" jump. Tried a couple different areas to ground it to make sure I had a good ground. What would you recommend for the next step? I never replaced the condenser or rotor or points ( I know stupid, should have done it all at the same time) so should I go ahead and do that? Thanks [Reply]  [No Email]