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TX641D 07-28-2010 16:44:04 72.64.92.150 476032 Report to Moderator	I am not sure what to do next. I am really confident that my tractor will start if I can just get fuel to it. I don't know whether i am failing and getting good prime in the fuel system or if there is something wrong with my injector pump. Here is what i've got so far: -Clean diesel -Flow from tank to filter (brand new filter element) -Good flow out of filter and have bled the fuel filter according to IT Ford Manual. -I have disconnected fuel hose leading from the filter to the injection pump at the port on the injection pump. The fuel hose is clear....so i get a great stream of fuel thru the hose and then shove it onto the port on the injector to avoid air bubbles. -At the advice of TXJim i loosened the two screws on the timing plate cover on the pump and got good flow from there.....then tightened it back up. When i crank over the engine, i can see an airbubble form at the fuel hose as it meetings the pump. I loosened the injector lines where they go into the head and cranked the engine over for a bit, but didn't get prime and didn't see any fuel flow out of the injection lines. Two questions: 1. How do i know if I'm just not priming the pump properly or if I have a bad pump? 2. When i crank the engine, is there any way that it could be sucking in air from return line to the fuel tank? thanks!!!!! [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-30-2010 12:23:03 72.64.92.150 476128 Report to Moderator	Re: I have a better offer for you.... in reply to GlenIdaho, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Thanks, tx. Can you call my cell phone? 210-287-5667. I may take you up on that.   [Reply]   [No Email]
john_Bud 07-30-2010 19:33:48 67.142.166.21 476168 Report to Moderator	Re: I have a better offer for you.... in reply to TX641D, 07-30-2010 12:23:03   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Hope it works for you!   [Reply]   [No Email]
JMOR 07-30-2010 05:30:14 72.190.67.150 476099 Report to Moderator	Re: I have a better offer for you.... in reply to RodInNS, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeSuch a deal! And once fired off, the runway is right there for a test flight! Get 'er dun!   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-29-2010 21:16:01 72.64.92.150 476089 Report to Moderator	Re: It is self-priming in reply to Dean, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   The tractor was non-running when i bought it. Thanks for the info on the pump being "self-priming". I have taken the timing window off and there is movement inside as the engine cranks over. No "mouse terds" present...fuel is clean. Don't know if shut off plate inside the pump is stuck or disengaging when i open the throttle Took it to a Ford/New Holland dealer today. Mechanic told me to change my fuel lines...suspect that there may be a suction of air into the system. He suggested that i get a 5 gallon bucket of fuel with direct feed into the injection pump and a direct return line back from the pump to the bucket. I said that if the pump is ever going to prime, it would do so in this "gravity" fed scenario and to check the loosened injectors for fuel after cranking. I am going to try this and try a pull around the yard as suggested earlier. If no success, then I will have to pursue rebuilding the injection pump. Was hoping it wouldn't end up at that answer....but I think its getting pretty clear. thanks   [Reply]   [No Email]
awhtx 07-30-2010 01:25:49 72.26.141.22 476091 Report to Moderator	Re: It is self-priming in reply to TX641D, 07-29-2010 21:16:01   A $3 can of Starting Fluid from Walmart would save you a lot of time and trouble. A very short tap on the push button on the top of the can is all you need. I'm in Lampasas- bring it on down and I'll show you how.   [Reply]   [No Email]
awhtx 07-30-2010 01:59:29 72.26.141.22 476092 Report to Moderator	I have a better offer for you.... in reply to awhtx, 07-30-2010 01:25:49   I get off work tomorrow (Saturday) at 12:00 noon. Load it on your trailer and bring it to DFW Airport, Terminal B, Lower Level, Gate B6. Stop at Walmart, O'Reilly's, Auto Zone or where ever and pick up a can of starting fluid. Be sure the battery is fully charged. I'll get it started for you.   [Reply]   [No Email]
jdemaris 07-29-2010 15:14:06 67.142.130.11 476078 Report to Moderator	It is self-priming in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   The Roosamaster/Stanadyne pump is self-priming as long as the fuel source is air-free. What's the history on all this? Did you buy a non-running tractor, or . . . did it quit on you? The pump is fairly simple and few pump shops ever actually "rebuild" them. Most of the time, the pump get pulled apart, cleaned, resealed and calbration checked. Most major parts used over again, as-is. $25-$50 in new parts, two hours labor, and a $600-$800 repair bill. #1 you need to find out if the pump is actually turing internally. It is designed to stop turning in certain conditions. Take the timing window off, turn the engine over, and look in to see if there is any movement in half the parts you're viewing. If you see NO movement, the pump is not turning inside. If it IS turning, next you need to verify the shut off valve (metering valve) is in RUN position. Also, if when you pull that timing window off, you see little specs that look like mouse turds . . . the plastic governor weight-retainer ring has failed.   [Reply]   [Send Email]
bjr 07-29-2010 06:56:45 64.184.156.8 476064 Report to Moderator	Expensive Pump Rebuild in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   I had the early 4000D 4 cylinder with probably the same pump you got. I rebuilt the engine, but ran out of money and the local pump shop wanted $800 up front to rebuild or even put the pump on the stand. The old tractor ran a little smokey, but, ran, so I sold the tractor as is. I got mine runnin' with a touch of start fluid. It's old tractor your not gonna hurt too much as you've been warned very well about using a lot of either, but, it should get you going at least. Put a charger on the battery and just don't get the starter so hot you can't touch it. I been where you're at and it took some either to make it finally lite off. bjr   [Reply]   [Send Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 21:23:23 72.64.92.150 476058 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Jim Evans, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Thanks John_Bud. I fall into that "inexperienced" category, so I don't want to mess with Ether and run the risk of hurting the engine until i have no other options. PSU....What i mean by "Bubble in the fuel line" that in the clear fuel tubing between filter and injection pump...i can see an air bubble in there about 1"-2" long. Its not seeping where the hose connects to the injection pump or to the filter. And, I have taken the hose off....let a good stream of fuel flow thru it and attached the hose back. But when I crank the engine over, the bubble comes back in that line, like there is air inside the injection pump. I did mean "injection pump" and not fuel pump in earlier post. Anyway...i will definitely try the pull start method that you guys suggested and see what happens :)   [Reply]   [No Email]
CliffP 07-28-2010 20:39:53 70.253.229.248 476057 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Jim Evans, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Is this maybe Tygon tubing? Is the pump perhaps sucking the tubing flat ? Just a thought.   [Reply]   [No Email]
PSU4250 07-28-2010 20:30:18 74.99.171.199 476056 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   No, towing won't hurt a thing, maybe your grass. By fuel pump do you mean the injection pump? You don't have another pump, just the injection pump, there is a low and high pressure pump built into the injection. I don't know what you mean by air bubbling at the fuel line, the fuel in line should be in the center of the round part where the injector lines leave the pump, thats in. The return line is on the side of the pump, the square looking part. Your hoses should be tight and no air bubbling or fuel leaking should be happening, maybe your hose is rotten? Injection pumps either work or they don't.   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 20:19:26 72.64.92.150 476054 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Jim Evans, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   That, I can do. Thanks for clarifying. Pulling it like that won't damage anything? I see how its much easier on starter and battery. I'll give that a shot and see what happens. Still looking for the answer to "how do you tell for sure that your fuel pump is bad or not functioning?" What is the test that guarantees it's the pump and not some other problem? Thanks again, PSU!   [Reply]   [No Email]
john_Bud 07-29-2010 13:00:04 67.142.166.27 476069 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 20:19:26   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I've got the definitive answer, but it's not the one you want to hear. Remove the pump, take it to an injection shop and have them put it on their test bench. That will cost about $100. Everything at an injection shop costs about a $100 :(. If you do the things I outlined and it still has no fuel, then it's real real real likely that the pump has gone toes up and is in need of a rebuild. That is more effort, takes about the same amount of time and is free. The last part is why I know about it... jb   [Reply]   [No Email]
john_Bud 07-28-2010 20:13:18 67.142.166.27 476053 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   How loose? you want to loosen them all the way, then finger tighten them. All the way loose is not correct (at least I don't think so!). Air can get out easier than liquid. I would try a finger tight crank for a timed on a honest to goodness watch for a real 30 seconds. Added emphasis as most people will crank for 8-14 seconds and think it's 45. We are no longer used to engines that require a long crank. If you get zero fuel after 30 seconds (you just want to have a drip or two at the fitting- that's all), then tighten them down and try pull starting it with a truck or other tractor. 4th gear in the tractor, throttle all the way down and the tow at a decent clip - but not scary fast! Be ready to stomp the clutch and signal the tow to coast to a stop. Tow it around for 5 min. That's a lot of towing. If there is no sign of it burbling, coughing, smoking or black liquid coming out the exhaust manifold, etc then I would feel pretty sure the pump was in need of some love. If it tried to run but couldn't -- it may be timed 180 degrees off. I agree with JMOR. Ether can be used with good success, but in the hands of the inexperienced it can trash a perfectly good engine in 1/2 a heart beat.   [Reply]   [No Email]
PSU4250 07-28-2010 20:09:02 74.99.171.199 476052 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Yes, pulling throttle back toward the seat it full throttle. Pull starting the engine will spin the engine over faster and can turn the engine over much longer, no overheating starter motor. You can pull it for miles if you like. Pull the tractor with another tractor or a truck. Put tractor in 3rd or 4th (4 speed right?) push in clutch, get moving, slowly engage clutch. Watch for fuel at cracked injector lines. Tighten lines, pull tractor again and should be running. After it starts once it should start again with the electric starter, assuming your engine is in good condition.   [Reply]   [No Email]
WA-Hal 07-29-2010 18:15:19 208.81.157.90 476087 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to PSU4250, 07-28-2010 20:09:02   Might I suggest caution trying to pull start a tractor that has been sitting for some time? Your clutch disk may be rust bonded to the flywheel, and if so, when you push in the clutch pedal, the clutch may not release like you expect it to. It is an awful feeling not being able to stop a tractor when you REALLY NEED TO!!!!!! The tractor MIGHT stop if you instantly put the "throttle" lever to the highest position. But if you don't know if the linkage adjustments are right, you cannot be sure. I think if I was going to try pull starting a tractor like you are, I would use a really long tow strap, so maybe I could steer around the tractor or pickup in front if I couldn't get the newly started tractor to stop moving forward. Needless to say, it is an unpleasant experience when you want a vehicle to stop and it will not. Especially when it is about to hit something you really didn't want to hit....BTDT! Good luck.   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 20:02:13 72.64.92.150 476051 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Rodney P, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   PSU... So, the lever pulled back down toward the seat is full throttle? And by pull start, you mean put it in gear with key on and pull it across the field with another tractor to turn the motor over? How does that differ than using the starter? Not sure i understand mechanically, what different is happening when you do that.   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 19:58:29 72.64.92.150 476050 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   No smoke at all. I am assuming that folks are asking about smoke as an indication of fuel in the cylinders? I am confident that no fuel is making it into the engine...yet.   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 19:55:17 72.64.92.150 476049 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to Rodney P, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Thanks TX, and I may get someone to help me do what you suggest. I am not comfortable doing that Ether shot on my own. I still am looking to understand how you can tell if the fuel pump is working properly or not.   [Reply]   [No Email]
awhtx 07-28-2010 20:25:39 72.26.141.22 476055 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 19:55:17   If it will start on ether and continue to run your injector pump is working. If it starts on ether and then dies your injector pump is not working.   [Reply]   [No Email]
JMOR 07-28-2010 19:47:40 72.190.67.150 476047 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to mhb@ufe, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeEther is OK, JUST BE STINGY with it or you can destroy. I use it when necessary, but very sparingly, because I have seen 4 shattered piston ring lands. Actually, a rag dipped in gasoline draped over the intake is a safer bet....in one persons opinion.   [Reply]   [No Email]
PSU4250 07-28-2010 19:47:19 74.99.171.199 476046 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   He said he had the injector lines cracked, 180 out or not, it should still spray fuel. When those rotary pumps sit awhile, the plunger pumps inside get stuck in the outer position. They rely on fuel pressure from the vane pump to push the plungers in so they contact the cam. Pull starting the tractor will almost always work. Keep the throttle pulled back to full speed position. I don't recommend ether either way.   [Reply]   [No Email]
Shaun Wallace 07-28-2010 19:32:06 184.79.84.3 476045 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Does it make any smoke? Could be 180*out of time.   [Reply]   [Send Email]
awhtx 07-28-2010 19:20:17 72.26.141.22 476043 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   I repeat my previous post on this subject: I have never been able to "bleed" the pump on my 861D. When I loosen the lines at the injectors I get no fuel. I shoot a short spray of ether into the intake as I am cranking the engine over and it fires every time. It will run rough for a few seconds as it bleeds the air out and then it runs normal.   [Reply]   [No Email]
TX641D 07-28-2010 19:04:55 72.64.92.150 476042 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to woodbutcher, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Yes the tractor sat for several years. Honestly, not sure about throttle positions. Tried it with the lever all the way down and with the lever pushed all the way up.   [Reply]   [No Email]
PSU4250 07-28-2010 18:48:57 74.99.171.199 476041 Report to Moderator	Re: 641D No prime or bad pump? in reply to TX641D, 07-28-2010 16:44:04   Was this the tractor that sat for years? Is the throttle set at wide open?   [Reply]   [No Email]