TO-30 cracked blocks.

well i'm looking at a TO-30 and spent some time reading on this forum and am now hearing stories of cracked blocks on these great little tractors. how common of a problem is this, i mean does it happen to all of them or 50% of them. if this tractor after 60 yrs doesnt have a cracked block is it safe to say it's in the clear?
also what should i be looking out for other than the basics like coolant in the oil. and if i do see coolant in the oil is it almost a gaurantee that its my block?

They all cracked from use and abuse. So in way you are right, if it lasted this long, and you don't flog it in future like most were the last 50 or 60 years, it should be fine...

No it is not always the block is cracked sometimes the o-rings on the bottom of the sleeves get deteriorated and water enters that way. As you should have read in the archives if the block is cracked it is usually caused from over-heating or the block froze. If properly maintained they should last an awful long time, and I am saying (almost) 64 years is not a long time as far as I know, that is when the first TO 20 was made.

so if i purchase this tractor and run it for a week or so and check to see that there is no cross contamination and never overheat it all should be good.

The problem is just the TO30, they crack easy do to the thin cylinder walls. What continental did was bore out there Z120 motor to a Z129 making it the 30. Ferguson probable ask for ten more horses cheap and that's what they came up with. If you live in a warmer climate i wouldn't worry to much cold areas make sure the antifreeze is good cuz it won't take long to crack in below freezing weather. There is a good side it is a strong little engine

Crack open the oil drain plug, just enought to get it to drip. If water comes out you probably have a cracked block. A lot of water,( 8oz or more you have a cracked block. A teaspoon or less, you have condensation. Use a oil pan just in case you dump the entire motor oil. I also do this on the 3 oil plugs in the transmission, or rear end. A good way to tell if water is getting the hyd oil. Also use a pan that can hold 8+ gallons. Buy a concrete mixing pan from a hardware center they work great.

i once bought a to-20 and all was fine until i drained the engine block and radiator of water and then added the proper mixture of AF and water. next day the crankcase oil was GREEN.
buyer beware.

There's no reason you can't be optimistic. Like others stated it can be other reasons such as a loose or blown gasket and the o rings do wear out. It it were me I'd be looking at a 35 with live pto, most especially if it's for grass cutting.

Mike, I found a TO30 sitting in the middle of about 500 acres that had been there since the early 80's. Granted there was water in the tranny but the engine was still free and not cracked that I could find. After rebuilding the engine and putting a valve kit in the hydraulic pump she purrs like a kitten. Good luck with your find, Mike

If there's oil spots floating in the radiator that generaly means blown head gasket,water in oil can be cracked block but not always 50/50 remember for the right price any thing can be fixed Hey were looking at the worst possible thing that could be wrong for the horse power these are the best tractors money can buy after 60 years.I know others would agree.

I have a 1959 To-35 that has never been apart! Great tractor!

Mine is a 57 to35, picked up for 1100 and now have 3k after I rebuilt.

There were at least 80,000 TO-30 manuafacured and 60,000 TO-20"s. I don"t know how many TE-20"s were built and they all used the Z129(TO-30) or the Z120 blocks. Not every tractor has a cracked block but it something you have to be aware of before you buy one with the Z120 and Z129 engines. And if it is cracked, there are ways to repair it. You just don"t want to pay top dollar for one, only to find out that you have to dump a bunch of money into the engine.
I actually think that the word has been out on the issue for many many years and it probably keeps the price of the TO"s and TE"s down because of it.

There is a recent discussion of the problem on page 2 of this forum and while no one has a hard facts about the magnitude of the problem, several of us who have had experience with this issue feel that it is design issue with the Continental Z block engines. If you look at the web between the cylinders, it is very thin and this is where most of the cracking occurs. If you have looked at various IC engine designs, you will not see inter-cylinder webs this thin on ag or industrial engines. I don"t think you see them this thin on very many othe IC engines for that matter.

I believe that the Z129 is more prone to the problem because it has a higher compression ratio cycle and a bigger cylinder bore diameter than the Z120, but I have no hard data to support that. I think the mechanisnm is thermal fatigue cycling and the probabilty of a failure increases if the web is on the small side of the casting tolerance (i.e. a thinner than nominal web thickness).

I"m not trying to discourage you from buying a Ferguson TO or TE tractor but just be aware of the potential problem. Caveat emptor.

Having said that, these engines have a better engine cycle and the overhead valve design gives them more hp and torque that their contempraries (the N series Fords). So there is an up side to this discussion.

"it is design issue with the Continental Z block engines."
i agree with that 100% but, and here is where i cite owner neglect.
the to-20 and to-35 that i bought that had cracked blocks were bought from NON agriculture type men. both these guys wanted the machines solely to mow grass on their 2/3 acres and push snow in the winter. i doubt if these guys knew the difference between a grease gun and a "schmieser" and unless maintenance was done by someone else i doubt if it was done regularly or at all. over the years thousands of these machines were transfromed from work horses to hobby horses or just abandoned and thats where owner neglect enters into the game.
once again FWIW.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I don"t want to get into an argument without have some hard data but I have a hard time seeing every cracked Continental Z block was caused by a careless operator or owner. There were a lot of broken blocks that were replaced by dealers and repared using tension rods in the early days and I believe their was even a factory campaign to replace broken blocks within the warranty period. I believe if you search the archives you will find discussions of this over the past say 10 years on this forum.

There are simply too many similar failures and other contemporary tractors did not have these engine block failure rates and so I have a hard time believing Ferguson had a lock on buyers who abused or neglected their machines. One can just look at the block and see that the section between the cylinders is very thin. As I said in the other posts, the section is thin in the nominal configuration and with casting tolerances, those sections on some tractors were even thinner.That"s why I call this problem a design issue.
I remember hen I was looking to by a N series Ford or a Ferguson TO in the "90"s, I talked to a guy who dealt in these small tractors as a side business selling to small acreage owners in the Willamette Valley.(He had a full time mechanic and a body man doing sheet metal repair and painting)he told me that he didn"t like dealing with Fergusons because they were prone to block cracking and they were too expensive to fix up. He could get $2800 to $30000 for an 8N and he "d have to get close to $1000 more for a TO- Ferguson and it was hard for folks to justify the cost difference. I felt the Ferguson was worth the extra $"s because of the additional power and effiiency (compression ratio of 6.5 and overhead valves).
My original TO-30 engine had cracks with a tension rod repair on with. The remanufactured engine I replaced it with was repaired by the furnace brazing method. There are good old tractors but the Continental blocks are prone to cracking.

Its finally refreshing to see some discussion about this without the usual passionate defense in the name of elevating the Ferguson name. I've said it for years, but have not participated in most of these cracked block discussions for that reason... I will say one more thing... Ferguson fixed the problem with the 35 and 135 (the Z-134 and Z-145). The cylinder spacing is the same and the bore is the same but the block molds and casting was completely redone and I suspect more ductile higher strength materials were used.. you seldom hear of a Z-134 cracking... It is too bad that the bell and mounts are so much different because it could be a good substitution if it fit..

I think it was Continental that fixed the problem, Jim. As you point out, we never hear much about the Z134 and the Z145 blocks cracking. Were these engines just stroked to get the increased displacment?

Yes.. just stroked.. and shared many of the same internal parts, particularly at the head.. (and yes, I should have said Continental.. Ferguson wasn't the maker.. but I am sure that Harry had a word with them about the problems..)

as an aside, my stroker engine was at 4.125".. and the rods would have hit the distributor gear on the cam.. The Z-145 cam used a smaller gear that cleared the rods.. so I was going to use the Z-145 cam and distributor.. a direct bolt-in to the Z-129

TO 20 FERGUSON CRACKED BLOCK FIX


I have a 1950 TO 20 Ferguson tractor that I bought back in 1963. It has a broken block between the webs between each cylinder. I got it cheap because of this. I was attempting to overhaul it for a customer when I discovered the cracks. I think it had been frozen. I showed it to him and told him that to my knowledge there was no way to fix it. At least not fix it and be able to guarantee the work. He sold it to me for $400 I think which was a pretty big price for a tractor with a broken block back then but it was really good sheet metal etc. so I bought it. Borrowed the money from the bank over my wife’s objections to pay for it. Already had all the new parts to rebuilt it and they came with the tractor. I thought of ways to fix the cracks but nothing I could come up with for a while. One day when it was slow in the shop at the Ford tractor dealership where I worked I got to thinking that maybe I could put lead into the cracks and seal it that way so that I could install the new sleeves etc and give it a try. I had a box of 22 bullets out in my 51 Ford so I went out and got them and started one at the time pulling the lead off the bullets and the using a flat ended chisel I would drive the lead into the crack until I could get no more to pack into the cracks. I did this to the three webs in the bottom off the block and then I pasted over that with epoxy and smoothed the ends where they entered the web cracks and installed the sleeves with the new bottom seals etc.
 
The tractor is still used and I have used it every year making hay etc up until about five years ago when I quit making hay. I put Bar's stop leak in with the coolant when I first assembled the engine back in 63 and have never let it be drained for long so that the stop leak etc would not dry up and it has never had any water in the oil. So much for impossible fixes!
 
Zane
ZANES LIFT STUFF

You had quite a plan to redo that engine, Jim! What did you do with the crank?

I tried to find some history on the Z engines but was unsucessful. I have the feeling they were designed for another application and were most likely modified to be used in the Ferguson tractors. Harry had a chasis but no engine after the "handshake" agreement was terminated so he neede an engine pronto. Obviously, Continental had something they could get into production relativly quickly. Relative to the flathead Ford, it was a real step up in volumetric efficiency but the darn block cracking problem kept it from being a real winner. The devil is always in the details.
I"ve certainly enjoyed hearing your experience with the TO-30 and I"m sorry you couldn"t get that stroker Z129 built.

don't believe i said every craked block was caused by owner neglect/incomoetence but i do believe it was a major factor.

"The TO Ferguosn is a wet sleeve engine and not as strong in cross section as the N engine. If it freezes it will crack internally between the cylinders at the bottom of the cylinders where the web is that holds the block together"
zane 3/8/2000

"There is a furnace brazing process that can be used to repair the Continenetal block so you can probably find one through a local machine shop. This was a common occurance for overheated Continental blocks and the old fixit proceedure used tension rods through the water jacket to hold it together."
Jerry/MT 4/25/2006

ya know i have been hanging around this site since 96 or 97 and after a few years i wondered if it would be possible to have anyone who has ever had a TO model with a cracked block to put on this board what part of the country they live. i think it would be intersting information.

I still have the crank wrapped and standing on end in my garage... I have in the back of my mind that I might build that engine after I retire.. but then what would I put it in....

We,Dad bought a TE20 when they first came into Central NE. 1947-48 somewhere in there. And in 1952 bought a 1952 TO30. Both tractors were bought new. WE had the T030 untill 2002 and the TE20 untill the late 1950's. Never cracked the block on either one.

satkins

Would any of you guys know more about the tension bar repair. Like exact placement and size of rod or where to get a repair kit with instructions