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upnorthwi 12-18-2012 08:06:13 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Here's another question, Is the head on a Z120 the same as a Z129? There's now a 3rd relative who says the head is from a 20. Supposedly the passed relative bought a 30 for the motor. Went thru the motor and did whatever it needed. Had to listen how the guy always did everything right, never cut corners. For what ever reason, the head he put on it is from a 20, but he went thru it. I take all that with a grain of salt. This work was done supposedly mid to late 90's, so it's been sitting quite awhile, but is free. The crank is still free and turns. While they would not hesitate in putting it on a tractor, they will not offer a guarantee. I guess my options are buy it and try it, buy it and tear it down or walk away. I have a extremely stuck 30 I bought. It's history is questionable...supposedly a head issue, cracked. My intention was to overhaul it, but I guess there is a real possibility the block may be cracked if it overheated. I was at first thinking if this motor is good, bolt it up. If there is questions on it, I could pull the head and pan and check things as was suggested here. It seems here I should have good parts to work with where as my current motor will need sleeves and everything, if the block is good. So buy it and check it, build it or walk away? [Reply]   [No Email]
s19438 12-18-2012 18:20:31 108.36.215.99 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   dude. buy it or walk away. the more you fret over it the more likely you will regret it if you buy it. [Reply]  [No Email]
Inno 12-18-2012 17:36:54 70.49.136.91 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   Definitely give it a try, you have absolutely nothing to loose and a lot to gain even if it is not repairable. You will have gained some knowledge along the way. [Reply]  [No Email]
2tractors 12-18-2012 15:34:12 207.144.5.133 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   My first rebuild was a to20 and as it turned out my head had a small crack that took me 3 tear downs to find. Someone had a 30 head and "IF" I'm not mistaken or miss informed then the 30 head gets oil from the center main and the 20 from the rear which means they're not interchangeable. As for your delima here's my opinion. STICK WITH THE 150 BID. while he's licking his wounds and decides to take your offer do what Tony said and tear into yours or take it to a machine shop for an opinion ONLY!! Then decide . As far as the rebuild goes we can walk you thru each and every step. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 15:47:55 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to 2tractors, 12-18-2012 15:34:12   I guess if I could get it for $150, I'd take it, but since the general opinion is to tear mine apart, I guess I'll give it a shot. Have to see how that goes since I'll be doing it outside. Since you bring up the heads, makes me wonder if they tried it and had a problem. Doesn't make sense to overhaul it and let it sit. Finding a machine shop will be a challenge near me. [Reply]  [No Email]
scott morrow 12-18-2012 15:19:10 173.254.162.249 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   Up north wi are you in wi I could help you with your problem give me a call and will talk. the head from a 30 will work on a 20 but not the other way around there is a extra water jacket hole Scott 920-373-6336 [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 15:39:31 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to scott morrow, 12-18-2012 15:19:10   Family is still upnorth, Harshaw, Rhinelander. We are actually Cincinnati OH, due to jobs. Plan is to retire up north...one of these years. Thanks for the offer though. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry/MT 12-18-2012 14:10:52 206.183.116.145 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   The head o the TO-20 has smaller intake valves then a TO-30 head. (It has more displacement than the Z120 and so needs bigger intake valves.) the heads are not interchangable per the manual. [Reply]  [No Email]
Tony in Mass. 12-18-2012 13:34:02 76.127.225.182 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   I got a bad idea. Boring anyway. Why don't you spend some time tearing the TO you already have appart to the point you know what is wrong with it- stuck right? Sometimes it is a minor or atleast free fix... but always requires a tear down. I was searching for pics I took of my tear downs, but they were all before I lost the hard drive, so they might be on a disc, I hope. You got a manual? Tools? A pallet or two and some two by fours? The engine can come off in a couple hours, and checked out in a couple more. THEN... you will decide to take a pig in poke on this chicken coop refugee engine. And try to find that guy selling just fergie parts, have a chat with him, and re read the manual... hey is there a dvd on here on TO30's? I bought the one for 35's... nice. Hard to get it to upload, but very clear process those guys use. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 14:27:09 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Tony in Mass., 12-18-2012 13:34:02   Have the manuals, cd. dvd, just no confidence that I can get it back together....right. Always read the littlest thing can trash a rebuild. I thought I could get a kit and drop it in. Then I started to read on here even with the kit all the meticulous measuring and checking you need to do, fitting bearings, rings. I thought if you got the kit you wouldn't have to do all that. So that adds to the jitters. The one is stuck. I assume it sat for many years without a head and rusted real good before they put the head on it to sell it. I've soaked for weeks, rocked, pulled, try every cocktail..it's stuck. So you're right, probably should tear it apart and see if I need to look for a block. There's so many questions the book doesn't cover, And to have panic and anxiety issues on top of it! Thanks for your thoughts. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 15:26:06 174.228.82.167 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 14:27:09   Did you try pouring boiling water down in the block thru the water neck? That may sound silly but sometimes the heat from the water will expand the block and sleeves enough to enable you to break it loose. It worked for me on a John Deere model A that sat outside for 20 years and rained down the exhaust. I soaked it for about a week, then poured the boiling water into the block, put a bar on the flywheel and got it to move and I kept working it back and forth little by little until it was free and I got it running. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 16:01:36 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Jason S., 12-18-2012 15:26:06   That is an interesting idea, never heard that one before, but it makes some sense. But here's a question, If a motor is stuck from rusted cylinders and rings and you break it free, aren't you then taking all that rust and scoring the cylinders to the point of being an oil burner? I guess that confuses me, I hear the stories on the ones that sat in the field, they free them up and they run, but it seems like all the moisture..rust would tear everything up. Or do you break them free to help you tear them apart? Can they still be usable after being freed? What do you think of the idea of using air pressure? I read to avoid anything or force that might bend the rods, but it seems there isn't much of a choice. I think mine was already stuck when they put the head back on. It's either a bad head that leaked and rusted or however long it sat without the head before he put it on. He said there was some rust, but no idea how bad it was. I'm thinking real bad. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 16:58:29 174.228.82.167 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 16:01:36   When it breaks loose the rings will scrape a lot of the rust off of the walls and push it to the top of the cylinder where it can be wiped out if the head is off. I usually take a cylinder hone and hone the tops of the cylinder walls so it removes some of the rust before i try to break it loose.Will it be an oil burner? That depends on how bad the cylinder walls are pitted and the rings are worn. If I could break it loose and crank it that"s what I would do. That way you can check oil pressure, listen for knocks, check the hydraulics and etc... [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 17:10:23 174.228.82.167 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Jason S., 12-18-2012 16:58:29   I've never tried air pressure, I've even heard of people pumping the cylinders full of grease and the hydraulic pressure breaking them loose but I would not ever try that. Personally I would remove the head and soak the cylinders some more and then take a block of wood and a hammer and tap on the tops of the pistons. Then take a breaker bar and socket and put on the bolt on the crankshaft pulley and see if it moves any. If it doesn't repeat the process. Just keep working at it. I don't rock the tractors when the engine it stuck because a lot of the time the clutch will slip before it break the engine loose. Especially if the clutch is worn. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 15:19:30 174.228.82.167 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 14:27:09   You shouldn"t have to fit the rings. They come pregapped. Check the clearances on them yes, but you shouldn"t have to file them unless the clearances are off. Check the back of the rod and main bearings to see if the crank has been ground already. The oversize on the bearing will be stamped into them, if there are oversize. The book will give you tolerances on the rod and main journals on the crank, measure the crank with some calipers if it is within spec reinstall it with new bearings. If not either send it off to be reground or buy one already turned with the matching bearings. Then install your sleeves, rods and pistons. Then set the end play on the crank. It"s really not as difficult as it seems, take lots of pictures as you tear it down, ask all the questions you want because there are people on here who will help you and try to walk you thru it. Keep everything clean and have patience. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 16:07:26 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Jason S., 12-18-2012 15:19:30   OK, there was a lot of Latin in there, bit of Russian maybe. I'll work on getting it apart first. Then you can work me through the steps. Probably have to teach how to measure again, think I forgot decimals and fractions about 6 grand kids ago. [Reply]  [No Email]
Richard L 12-18-2012 10:40:58 71.90.139.15 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   If I remember now the TO 30 has a hole in the gasket to line up with a hole in the block and if the gasket is installed backwards the hole won't have any way to let liquid through maybe that is difference between the 20 and 30 heads. Anyone remember anything about this? [Reply]  [No Email]
Tony in Mass. 12-18-2012 10:27:19 76.127.225.182 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   I don't know if you are fixated on this thing or what, if so, just pay the man. You have heard everyone's opinion twice! I just got onto Evansville farm and garden Craigslist, and saw atleast 5 things 'I' would check out, nice Mf's for high bucks, but a running rolling TO20 for $1000, a project for 800, and a guy selling fergie parts. So you aren't in a lonely high end market, you just got to start smart shopping. Get on Craigslist.com Click Indiana click Evansville click farm and garden search word 'ferguson' you will see a list of local items, and lower down a list of fergison items in the surrounding area. The runner for a grand is in 'Brandenburg'... [Reply]  [No Email]
Dan S (NY) 12-18-2012 12:31:14 216.27.112.8 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Tony in Mass., 12-18-2012 10:27:19   I think I would go look at that '1948 Ferguson' for $800 just to see what it is. Could be anything... Dan [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 11:05:45 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Tony in Mass., 12-18-2012 10:27:19   Yes, I'm probably fixated on it, trying to make a good decision that is not going to cost me more in the end. Have I heard everyone's opinion twice? not exactly. Some have said jump on it for 300, some have said don't go more than 200, some have said walk away. So based on that, I still don't know what to do. Now it's known that it has the wrong head on it, does that still make it a good deal or an indication of more of a problem. Many people have the resources, knowledge and connections to get right through this, I do not. Many people have the confidence to jump right in, I don't. Many people can hook up their hauler to their truck and drive 3-4 hours to get that runner for a grand, but I don't have either, I have to pay a wrecker to go get it, or try to find what I need close. Sorry if I've aggravated you by asking questions and showing my ignorance and lack of knowledge. Maybe it's time to just sell it all and walk away. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 13:29:26 174.228.82.167 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 11:05:45   Yes, I said it"s worth $300.00 if it has a good block and crank. But now you have no way of knowing. You said your motor was stuck, why not take the head off of yours, take off the oil pan, take the rods loose and knock the piston, rod and sleeve out together. Take the $300.00 you save by not buying the other engine and get new sleeves, pistons, and rings for your current engine. Doesn"t that make more sense? If really need to get it running in a hurry you could always swap a TO20 engine into it. They are easier to find and usually cheaper. I bought one as an extra off of a board member here that was complete for $200.00. I just hate to see you spend $300.00 for an engine that may very well need the same parts your current engine needs...and if I was betting, I would say it does. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 14:11:18 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Jason S., 12-18-2012 13:29:26   You make sense, I guess I was still stuck on rebuilt, but since it's kind of obvious it's not, or right, I'd be buying 1 unknown when I already have 1. thanks for your thoughts. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dan S (NY) 12-18-2012 12:47:15 216.27.112.8 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 11:05:45   It depends on why you bought your TO30 in the first place. If you just need a tractor to do work around the place and have no other interest beyond that, you could sell what you got and look for something that already works. On the other hand it you don't need to use it any time soon and are interested in learning about these old machines, get the blue Ferguson service book, read it through and start taking things apart. You gain confidence by practice and learning from mistakes. If you already have a seized engine you don't have much to lose anyway. Dan [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 13:26:31 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Dan S (NY), 12-18-2012 12:47:15   I like the old tractors, wanted to restore one and maybe use it for some mowing, maintaining the drive etc, but more for saving a piece of history for my son and grandson. I bought an 8N that needed the carb fixed. Found out later the motor was trash. I think that was 41200, sold it for maybe 900. I liked the Ferguson's, wanted a 35, but came across a 30 in rough shape for about 800 + hauling. I started to look for parts and came across the stuck one. She wanted 1000 firm, we traded some guns. It's very nice, just stuck. Too nice to part out. The plan now was switching motors, but I didn't want to forever scrap the other. So now the plan was to rebuild the stuck one and fix both tractors. But now, the possibility of a rebuilt or at least a running motor for 300 pops up. Thus my long battle and confusion over what to do. I have offered them for sale, but people want the live pto, or don't want to give anything for them. I don't need it right now, I have my modern tractor for work. If I could find someone to teach me how to rebuild it right, I'd feel better. But I can't even find a place near me to do machine work. A lot of people always say NAPA, my 2 NAPA's barely know what a tractor is. I'll have to figure something out soon though. Thanks for your thoughts. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dan S (NY) 12-18-2012 09:49:30 216.27.112.8 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   Just saw below he wants $300 firm...ah well. For that price I would want to take off the pan and head to have a quick look before purchase. If everything is shiny and clean with new looking sleeves and pistons and signs of prelube used as should be in a rebuild I might spend $300. Dirty/corroded/mouse pee innards, no way. Dan [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 10:08:17 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Dan S (NY), 12-18-2012 09:49:30   Do you really think if it was done right that everything would still be nice after 10 years? Then again, I could probably look and see if it even looks like a new pan gasket is there. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dan S (NY) 12-18-2012 09:33:53 216.27.112.8 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   If it was me and I could get it for $150 or so I would buy it even if it was just for the parts. I wouldn't go to the trouble of installing it into a tractor before taking it apart though. If it does have a 20 head that you don't need and its in good condition you could recoup some of your cash by selling it. You may be able to recondition and use the head from your stuck Z129 on the 'new' engine. Until you take apart both engines you won't know the true story of either. Dan [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 09:54:11 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Dan S (NY), 12-18-2012 09:33:53   Thanks for your thoughts. Strange enough, on my stuck 30, they said the head was cracked and purchased a good used head, but re-installed the bad head a year or so later. So I have 2 heads 1 good and 1 bad... supposedly. He's not going to come off $300. Would you give it to him? [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason S. 12-18-2012 08:59:20 204.54.36.245 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   Combustion chamber size and intake valve sizes are different between the two heads.Seems like there was a thread on here that said the cooling passages was different between the two heads but I don't know on that one.But the book states they arent interchangeable. They will physically bolt on, but arent meant to be interchanged.They never cut corners but the block is greasy? If they rebuilt it and didnt clean the block chances are they didnt clean much of anything else when they rebuilt it.Thats my opinion anyway.I think you would be better off to have your block fixed instead of buying another motor that may have a cracked block also. If it was me, I would ask to take the oil pan off and look.If they wont agree to that, I'd walk and find another or have your block fixed. [Reply]  [No Email]
upnorthwi 12-18-2012 10:03:56 76.2.221.25 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to Jason S., 12-18-2012 08:59:20   I tried looking on here to, found some old posts that they interchange but thought there was newer posts that said they don't. I know the valves are different and some parts are the same, but when I don't know I'll ask here or stay with the belief that Ferguson knew what they were doing. I guess now that you say it, I might as well tear mine down. I guess the thought was if my block is junk, I'm in a bad position of finding another where-as if I buy this one, I should have a good block. If I end up with 2, I should be able to sell it and get some of my money back. [Reply]  [No Email]
Richard L 12-18-2012 08:21:02 71.90.139.15 Report to Moderator	Re: How to buy a rebuilt motor update 2- question in reply to upnorthwi, 12-18-2012 08:06:13   According to the TO 20/30 parts book they are different numbers but I do not know what the difference in them is. [Reply]  [No Email]