200 Starts by hand, but not by starter

thekryptkeeper · Feb 11, 2015

Hello all. To start I'd like to say that this
forum has been immensely helpful in rebuilding
my grandfathers Farmall 200. So thank you
already.

The problem is as the title states. If you pull
it by hand it fires right up, but the starter
will just crank and crank. I can also assure
that it is engaging the flywheel just fine.

At this point everything but the distributor
base has been replaced. Not to bore you, but
that means: voltage regulator, alternator,
starter, points, plugs, wires, coil, pistons,
bearings, carb rebuild, starter switch, water
pump, belts, valves, springs, and a full rewire
to 10ga wire along with checking all switches
and gauges.

Now the engine has been re-sized to 219ci if i
remember correctly and the carb was jetted to
match this using an exhaust sniffer. It never
needs to be choked. When it runs it runs
strong. It is also a 6v positive ground if that
matters.

Like I said, I just can't get it to start with
the starter. If it is warmed up, I can
sometimes get it with the starter by pulling
the switch for 1 single stroke on 1 cylinder
(like a 1/2 second pull) and then jam the
switch shut and it will fire. This leads me to
think the starter is moving too slowly and
preventing the engine from running up, but I
have never heard of this and the solenoid
operates fine on the starter.

What am I missing? Any advise is most welcome!

Bob · Feb 11, 2015

Your spark is weak. When the current draw of the starter pulls the battery voltage down, the spark is too weak to fire the plugs.

Could be a weak coil, or perhaps you have a coil that does not need an external resistor and there is one in the circuit, or even a bad coil wire or cap or rotor.

thekryptkeeper · Feb 11, 2015

They've all been replaced though. And when I check the spark with another plug grounded to the engine, the spark seems bright and blue.

Though that doesn't mean I'm not going to rip back into it and recheck all of that. You mentioned a resistor on it. There is none that I can see, but how would I go about checking any of this? If you are talking about the internal resistance on the spark plug wires, I seem to remember there being no resistance when I checked and changed them.

It's a new battery as well. I've also side gapped and indexed the plugs, any reason why that was a mistake?

My familiarity is with Forced Induction cars and motorcycles, so I may be missing the mark here.

Thanks Bob for your reply. Again, I really appreciate any thoughts.

Bob · Feb 11, 2015

Use a spark tester or open up a spare spark plug to 3/16" or so and see how the spark jumps that wider gap while the engine is cranking with the starter.

<img src = "http://ep.yimg.com/ay/rodi/ignition-spark-tester-with-adjustable-gap-3.png">

Jim Becker · Feb 11, 2015

With that many new parts, you could have one that was bad out of the box (one of the ignition parts, not charging parts). You mention alternator and 6-volt positive ground. Really? A mismatch of parts can cause trouble.

I suspect a bad connection, paint if you are doing clean-up and paint-up, otherwise corrosion/rust.

al71 · Feb 11, 2015

Test #1 Connect a wire from the batt to the coil and see if the tractor starts with the starter if so, then the wiring to coil is poor.

Test #2 Check the voltage at the coil as it should be 9 volts or better.

Special note to all of us that paint things pretty is be sure to nuse star washers at all electrical connections because is an insulator.

Al71

Brownie450 · Feb 11, 2015

We had a '66 Ford truck with a 352 v-8. Needed a new battery, so we put in a top of the line battery.
The thing cranked like crazy, but would only start when the key was released---no starter load.
Turned out the new battery was not putting out a true 12 volts.
I would suggest putting a voltmeter on the coil "hot" primary & reading voltage while cranking the
engine.
By the bye, 6 volt alternators are not so uncommon.
They are made by Motorola & I believe Delco makes them also.
Could be the condenser also.

old · Feb 11, 2015

Check spark when your spinning it over with the starter. You need a good blue/white spark that will jump a 1/4 inch gap or more. If spark is weak good chance your starter is pulling to many amps and need to be rebuilt.

gene bender · Feb 11, 2015

Get the starter refreshed. If you put a volt meter on the batt sidfe of the coil get a reading when the starter is enguaged probably not enough volts to get good fire to the plugs. Everything is in top shape or it wouldnt start with the crank. You either have bad cables,battery or the starter needs rebuilt.

CNKS · Feb 11, 2015

Could also be out of time. Set #1 on TDC, make sure the mark on the flywheel lines up with the mark in front of it. Pull the coil wire out of the distributer and hold the end about 1/4 inch from the nut on the side of the distributer and rotate the distributer until you get a spark. Somehow I don't think it is the starter, as I have started them with very slow rotation. It is true that a slow starter can eat all the current before it can get to the points, though. I assume you replaced the battery cables, be sure the positive one has a good ground.

CNKS · Feb 11, 2015

Ignore above, I forgot the crank

Mo in NE Tx · Feb 11, 2015

Bob hit the nail on the head about weak fire while starting. I have an "A" that would start only when the engine was turning over good and when you released the starter. It'd run great when started, by=passed the resistor and it starts great just like it's supposed too.

El Toro · Feb 11, 2015

Your starter may be dropping the battery voltage too much, then there's not enough battery voltage for your ignition. Hal

teddy52food · Feb 11, 2015

If it is still on 6 volts, make a ground cable to go from battery to a starter bolt not to the steering post as it was.

John M · Feb 12, 2015

This sounds real confusing to me. What type of switch are you using that you push IN to get it to fire off? Factory switch pulls out to run, in to shut it off. The only other thing I can think of is youre using a magneto, and the starter is spinning it TOO fast for the implulse to work properly, but Ive had them not click but still start, just took a few more revolutions.

mkirsch · Feb 12, 2015

Ok, how well is the starter turning the engine over?

Do you get a slow RRRRrrrrr.... RRRRrrrrr.... RRRRrrrrr...?

Do you get a fast WA-WA-WA-WA-WA-WA-WA?

We did have a starter that seemed to be cranking the engine over fine, but the engine would not start. Put a different starter on the engine and it would fire right up. Turned out that starter had a bent main shaft which was causing it to draw excessive current and killing the spark.

El Toro · Feb 12, 2015

If the tractor will start easily by a pull start.
You need to have your starter checked. If you have a distributor your battery voltage is too low
when using the starter. Hal

David G · Feb 12, 2015

You state alternator and 6V positive ground, you sure about those 2 statements? It really seems like an under voltage to the coil issue. Please check on this and report back.

thekryptkeeper · Feb 12, 2015

Thank you all for the replies. It is definitely a 6v pos ground and both the starter and alternator have been replaced. It charges well, though a few people have mentioned the alternator 6v combo... Is that strange? Am I incorrect in my terms? Is it a generator or something? Belt driven device I would call an alternator wired to a box that I would call a voltage regulator then wired to a voltage meter and then the battery. Sorry, but I really only work on cars so I assume some things. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I meant that it starts if I pull the starter for a second and then push it pack in real quick. This is not the run switch I'm talking about, as mine is out to run like most of them. If I just lay on the starter it goes very fast, like WA-WA-WA-WA

Again, could someone clarify where this resister is? As it is 6v, I'm pretty sure I don't have one. It is direct wiring to the coil. Also the battery is hooked right to the starter. There is no white box bolted to the tractor with wire terminals. Just straight wire. Could it be internal?

The gap is set well and not too big. I'll recheck that along with the timing, though I was pretty sure it was set fine. Again, it runs great after it starts. It seems to be coil issue after all of this discussion, though the story about the starter with a bent main worrys me. I'll be out on the farm early next week working on it and I'll run through some stuff. I really appreciate it.

John M · Feb 12, 2015

You shouldn't have a resistor or an internally resisted coil. If you "alterantor" doesnt look like one on a car, and is long, and most likely black if its been rebuilt unless you painted, its a generator.

El Toro · Feb 12, 2015

My garden tractor has a generator for starting and
charging the battery and its 12 volts. Your generator should look similar. Hal
PS: There's a belt guard blocking the view.

El Toro · Feb 12, 2015

An alternator looks like in this picture. Hal

Owen Aaland · Feb 12, 2015

Farmall 200 with generator:

Farmall 200 with alternator:

thekryptkeeper · Feb 12, 2015

Ah, generator. Sorry.

David G · Feb 12, 2015

post pictures.....

David G · Feb 12, 2015

Alternators can be 6V or 12V, internal or external regulator, negative or positive ground, but 99% are 12V negative ground. They are short and fat, generators are long and skinny. A 6V system should NOT have a resistor.

David G · Feb 12, 2015

Can we back up a step, are you using any choke?

thekryptkeeper · Feb 13, 2015

When turning by hand, it has never needed to be choked. With the starter I would sometimes choke it mostly because I can't understand why it isn't starting. At this point I'm pretty sure it is the starter making a weak spark. So I'm gonna check into that on monday.

David G · Feb 13, 2015

I really believe it is a coil voltage issue, but a wet mixture will ignite easier than a dry one, so choke will help the starting.

I like to test for a timing issue by pulling the coil wire, cranking, then put it in and crank, speed should be about the same if it is OK.

200 Starts by hand, but not by starter

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