Always trust the pros

Amidst all the troubles getting my 300U started (see my previous posts), the starter quit working. I've been doing a lot of unpaid overtime and I messed up my wrench turning hand, so I figured it was a good bet to just take it to a pro and have them deal with it. there's a battery shop on the way home from work with a big sign "We Repair Alternators Starters Generators!"
So I stopped in and asked them to test my starter.

[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Bad sign #1[/b:d2fa2ce4b6], they wouldn't let me into the shop. I had to stand in the retail battery shop while all 3 guys in the shop went into the back. After some 5 minutes they came back. We'll call them Larry Curley and Moe.

[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Bad sign #2[/b:d2fa2ce4b6], they have no idea how a starter works.
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"What's the bad news?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"It's busted."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"I knew that. What's the problem?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:The drive is busted"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"What part is busted?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"The drive."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"What do you mean by the drive?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Larry[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"The whole thing. It doesn't even throw the gear."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"It's an inertial mechanism. It won't move the gear unless the shaft accelerates fast enough."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Curley[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"It's the Bendix"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"There's no Bendix."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Curley[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"Not any more."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]: :shock:
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"And the motor doesn't turn."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"Right, any idea why? Did I burn out a coil? Damage the armature? Bearings?
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"The whole thing. It'll have to be rebuilt."

[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Bad sign #3[/b:d2fa2ce4b6], they can't estimate a price.
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"What would that cost?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"Couldn't say until they're done."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"You don't do it here?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Larry[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"No, we send it to Portland. I think they send it to Mexico. It normally takes 2 weeks."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"And what does that cost?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Moe[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"No way to tell."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"So you've never actually done that before and you have no idea what it might cost?"
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Curley[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"Maybe $180."
[b:d2fa2ce4b6]Me[/b:d2fa2ce4b6]:"Thanks guys, I'll take it home."

So I take it home, open it up, and see immediately that one of the brushes has worn to the point it no longer directly contacts the commutator. It's been arcing (and depositing copper on the commutator). Three minute diagnosis, and repair for the price of a set of brushes.

So remember folks, always trust a pro!

As an aside, will I have to turn the commutator? I cleaned it up with a brass brush, but it's a couple of thou higher where the new copper welded into it.

Boy, this kind of thing is becoming more and more common. Unfortunately it's spread far greater than mechanic work. We have doctors and nurses now that can't troubleshoot either.

A good basic rebuild for a genny or starter that does not have bad field coils or windings is:

1.) turn commutator, undercut the mica
2.) replace brushes
3.) replace bushings
4.) replace felt in oil caps

Of course, a genny doesn't have a drive unit or switch, but those should be inspected and replaced if questionable.

Remember, that is a basic rebuild. Field coil replacement and armature rewinding require more effort and cost.

Went downtown to get gas and diesel for the mowers. 30 gallons
total. The owner has just left on vacation and a kid I have never
seen, who described himself as "labor", offers to help. I am
pumping the non-ethanol regular so I say, "OK, pump the diesel." I
have new-fangled yellow plastic diesel cans with those stupid locking
spouts on them. The fuel is loaded, I pay, and drive the truck
home. Unloading, I notice that the diesel spouts are angled about,
in a position that is un-pourable. Got to loosen each cap and
reposition the spout. What was this guy thinking? Apparently
not about me pouring the diesel back out of the can. From time to time I am reminded of why I like
to do some things myself.

Chuck the armature in a drill press & use a mill file to remove unneeded material. Run the press on a slow speed. You can use a fine abrasive also to polish the commutator.

The Ark was built by ameteurs.The Titanic was built
by professionals......

.......[b:df0e7ee64c]Bad sign #1[/b:df0e7ee64c], they wouldn't let me into the shop........

Click to expand...

he rest are pretty bad, but this is not a bad sign. due to libility and insurance coverage practically all service places (tire, auto, machinery, etc.) are required to keep you out of the service area. If you are in the service area, at minimum, the employee will get chewed out, or fired, and if you are injured, the insurance will not cover it.

Good point!

Don't bother to undercut the mica in the commutator on a starter. The brushes are hard enough to wear the mica down as the copper wears. If you undercut the there is a good possibility of the particles that wear off the brushes and commutator filling in the undercut area and will tend to short across the bars.

Generator brushes are much softer and not undercutting the mica on those armatures will result in high spots and arching of the brushes.

(quoted from post at 13:57:15 05/15/14)

.......[b:835e113bff]Bad sign #1[/b:835e113bff], they wouldn't let me into the shop........

Click to expand...

he rest are pretty bad, but this is not a bad sign. due to libility and insurance coverage practically all service places (tire, auto, machinery, etc.) are required to keep you out of the service area. If you are in the service area, at minimum, the employee will get chewed out, or fired, and if you are injured, the insurance will not cover it.

Click to expand...

I am lucky to have a real starter/alternator shop near me (founded in 1928). They let me go in the back to watch the testing where they have a test bench that must date to the 1930's, with volt and ammeters the size of dinner plates. It all would look at home on Captain Nemo's submarine. Last time I took my starter in, they correctly diagnosed a broken brush mount, gave me a price, and repaired it in 20 minutes for a reasonable price.

They do antique car starters and generators and custom cabling. I hope they survive forever.

Durk, no truer words were ever spoken. Shops that actually understand generators and starters and how they work are slowly disappearing. I am not aware of any of the "younger" folks interested in learning about them, much less making it part of their business.

Today, when an alternator goes, or a starter goes, you get a new one and get a few $$ for the core. The cores get palletized with 200 other ones and shipped to a factory that rebuilds them simply by replacing components. No diagnostics, no understanding, just clean the core, replace the "consumables", and send it back out to the warehouse for resale distribution.

we are currently in an "in between" stage. There are still some "old timers" in business, but dwindling. 20 years from now, someone who actually knows how to work on these things will be able to make a decent living, doing nothing else but that.

IMHO.

So I went out today to buy some replacement brushes. Not a single auto parts store within 50 miles carries starter brushes. Or any brushes at all for that matter. They all looked at me like I was crazy.
"Why not just buy a new one? It'll come with a warranty."
"Okay, get me a starter for a 1956 International 300U tractor, 6V, CCW, 10 teeth."
"Uhhhhh...."

I guess there's ebay.

That was instructive.

Worthington had them at $.75 ea, plus $8.50 shipping. I didn't like the shipping price, so I looked further. Wow, some kinda scam artists out there.

Someone had the same part up on ebay for $19.95 each.
Amazon had them for $.03 off! for only 19.95 each!

No wonder it costs $180 to rebuild a starter, look at the parts prices.

I think I'll look for some small parts to fill out the order and distribute the shipping cost over at Worthington instead.

Guess I'm lucky to have a reputable "auto-electric" shop near me. I can watch him check it out, and then they stock parts for most older starters and generators. Had my 240U starter in for repair a couple years ago. It has been switched to 12V, so the guy said part of my problem was it should have 12V field windings. Never started so fast as it does now. Added another $75 to the basic rebuilt, so about $170 total, but as mentioned, it starts great. Had a problem when it was really, really cold last winter, but that was not the starter.

Some of those brushes can be found at an motor repair shop too. That would be where they take apart generators and motors and replace the brushes. I found a couple for my tiny motor there. One of the people came out with a fishing box full of different sizes. I remember back in the mid 70s watching my dad repair his starter in our farm shop. The only problem I could see is finding some bushings that may fit. My dad would just make one if it was necessary...he has a lathe still.

I like to repair starters, alternators, and generators but it is tough to be competitive price wise with the stuff from overseas. I can buy new Delco 10SI copies for less than it costs me for the parts to repair one.

When I was servicing a fleet of GMC trucks in the 90s they all used a CS-130 alternator. The rebuilt units I found ranged from $180 to $300. I was buying the stator, rectifier, bearings, regulator, and brushes for about $40 and with an hours labor I rebuilt them. That lasted until my cost of a new clone dropped to $42.

Most of what I work on these days is starters. You can still get almost any small part you need for Delco Remy units. As long as you don't need to replace the armature they can be repaired for reasonable cost.

(quoted from post at 16:36:42 05/15/14) Went downtown to get gas and diesel for the mowers. 30 gallons
total. The owner has just left on vacation and a kid I have never
seen, who described himself as "labor", offers to help. I am
pumping the non-ethanol regular so I say, "OK, pump the diesel." I
have new-fangled yellow plastic diesel cans with those stupid locking
spouts on them. The fuel is loaded, I pay, and drive the truck
home. Unloading, I notice that the diesel spouts are angled about,
in a position that is un-pourable. Got to loosen each cap and
reposition the spout. What was this guy thinking? Apparently
not about me pouring the diesel back out of the can. From time to time I am reminded of why I like
to do some things myself.

Click to expand...

I always do what he did when refilling my gas cans, because it makes me feel better about any gas possibly sloshing out on the trip home.

(quoted from post at 09:52:15 05/19/14)

(quoted from post at 16:36:42 05/15/14) Went downtown to get gas and diesel for the mowers. 30 gallons
total. The owner has just left on vacation and a kid I have never
seen, who described himself as "labor", offers to help. I am
pumping the non-ethanol regular so I say, "OK, pump the diesel." I
have new-fangled yellow plastic diesel cans with those stupid locking
spouts on them. The fuel is loaded, I pay, and drive the truck
home. Unloading, I notice that the diesel spouts are angled about,
in a position that is un-pourable. Got to loosen each cap and
reposition the spout. What was this guy thinking? Apparently
not about me pouring the diesel back out of the can. From time to time I am reminded of why I like
to do some things myself.

Click to expand...

I always do what he did when refilling my gas cans, because it makes me feel better about any gas possibly sloshing out on the trip home.

Click to expand...

I do the same angling them backwards for sloshing out.