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large AC alternator instead of pto shaft system ?

B

buickanddeere

Well-known Member
iirc I seen a vintage Farmall at a show with an AC alternator factory mounted on the right side of the tractor.
The owner claimed that plan was to use electric motors on balers, pull type combines , forage harvesters etc. Instead of running pto shafts ?
Yes, no or maybe ?
 
I saw that over in Canandaigua last year, maybe the year before. I don't know anything about the KW rating, or AC vs DC. I didn't think they were rated as high as you mention. But surely some IH guru will tell us shortly!
 
Yes it was done. The system was called Electrall.
There are several examples in existence. Wardner (a formerly frequent contributor to the Farmall-IH forum had a 400 with two of the "generators" mounted. They were not successful as implement power in that they were not price competitive. Were complex and bulky. GE made the electrical components. Electralls were also trailer mounted PTO driven, and are still used as emergency backup in that mode. A beautiful 400 with electric baler was at the Albert Lea Red power roundup. Jim
 
Memory inaccurate, but here are the pictures I took at RPRU 2011 It is 3 phase, and has a belt driven exciter generator supplying start up voltage. Jim
a149540.jpg

a149545.jpg

a149548.jpg
 
I think they are trying to bring that idea back in modern tractors. I recall seeing it mentioned in a magazine or online in the last 12 months.

karl f

ps I found a link to what I may have read!
oh man, its green
 

Three phase does make a lot more sense than single phase. Once you have used three phase motors you won't go back to single phase unless forced to.
 
(quoted from post at 15:34:13 03/15/14) I think they are trying to bring that idea back in modern tractors. I recall seeing it mentioned in a magazine or online in the last 12 months.

karl f

ps I found a link to what I may have read!
oh man, its green
Click to expand...

Certainly bringing the electric system to ships in the military and cruise boat industry. Been in use for decades in the off road heavy vehicles and railways. Some attempts to use on bulldozers etc. Better than having all that hot hydraulic oil around.

Just got off the Fantasia, what a beauty. She could steer the stern electric prop motors and use a bow thruster. 1000ft of ship that could steer like a swather or skid steer.
Port pilot docked that ship in the smallest and crookedest of harbours.
 
It wouldn't work on a chore or utility tractor, but for continuous high demand perhaps you could run the generator with a small turbine. A motor or two for the tractor and plug in whatever implement as needed.

The APU on what I flew, IIRC burned about 6 or 8 gallons an hour and would make 400 amps@ 28 volts.
 
Bob - That Electrall we both saw in Canadaigua several years ago was rated for 208 volts 3 phase and 12.5 kw output.

Were the generator used to power an electric motor, the most you could expect at the motor shaft is about 13 HP.
 
You might say that Ford has done it a smaller scale in some cars and trucks. I.e. electric power steering assist. On a tractor? Pretty much not practical. Lets say a small tractor that needs 40 PTO horsepower. It (the motor to start) would need 400 amps @ 500 volts. If scaled down to 12 volts - it would need around a 4000 amp alternator to be useful.
 
The Electrall system was 230v 3phase. And 120v singlephase outlets as well. Shaft HP and electric motor HP somehow get measured strangely, the bailer in the photos I supplied works well. (It is a trailer queen now, but was used productively when new)
Modern electronic controls, inverter driven voltage and phase modification, and permanent magnet motors may just prove you to be announcing the impractical nature of electrical power transmission prematurely. Jim
 
Maybe and maybe not. My use of "practical" includes being cost effective. A typical modern electric car runs at 300-400 volts. A low tech electric motor run at 350 volts draws around 8 amps per horsepower. A 50 horse PTO would then draw 400 amps @ 350 volts. Granted that a synchronous electric motor might be more efficient but power demands would still be very high. To be practical - the electric PTO system would have to be cheaper then a conventional one. That certainly hasn't happened with any electric cars yet.
 
Good points. The cost of electric cars has much to do with battery costs, not the generators or motors. I also believe (as you do) that there are limits to the power transfered. A good drive shaft design has near 100% efficiency (air drag and minor bearing drag) electric drives don't approach that. Jim
 
With a little luck, I hope to have the SMTAD tractor, electrall and the electric baler at the RPRU in Huron. It will be part of a display that Nebraska Cowman is putting together. Hopefully we will also have a trailer electrall, a fast hitch electrall and a pickup truck electrall included in the display. Cowman, I hope I am not spoiling any of your surpises!)
 
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