806 miss and smoke…alot of smoke

I just purchased a 1964 806d. I bought it with the understanding
that it had a miss and smoked white pretty bad. (smoke reeks of
diesel smell). I went ahead and bought the tractor thinking it would
be an easy injector swap. Tractor starts easy in cold weather (35+),
runs smooth at idle, has very little blowby. When revved up, it has
an awful miss. I cracked all of the injector lines and got a change in
pitch off all injectors, but smoke and miss never cleared up. Has
about 10 psi oil pressure at idle and as much as 40-50 at pto
speed. The inj lines were pretty frozen to the flare nut so i did not
crack them much, just enough to get a dribble of fuel and hear a
change in engine performance. Any help would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks. AP.

Well for starters the low oil pressure is of concern , next for starters i would check pump timing then on to the valves . white smoke is and indication of low compression or timing . Keep in mind that this engine is NOT for the novice to rebuild . as for stuck injection lines ,well this is almost normal . Two ways of loosen them (1) with a LITTLE Heat and i mean little like no hotter then 200-259 degrees (2) i have good luck with the penetrating fluid i use along with some light tapping with and ELF hammer I use ZEP and it is not easy to find and it is not cheap . IF the easy stuff to check turns up nothing the get your check book out cause this will be a tuition payment of the first installment in your tractor buying .

UPDATE- I forgot to mention that my dad went with me to look at and buy tractor. When I asked him how the oil looked, he said, "full and clean". It was. I went to look at it myself today after writing the original post and found that it was 90 % diesel. So, it looks like im going to be pulling the pump and resealing it. Vet, I appreciate your advice and consider myself to be a pretty good mechanic. I have rebuilt a few of these tractors and engines and feel that ive got them down pretty good. Correct me if i seem way off base but im thinking out loud. Im sure that the low oil pressure condition stems from the diesel in the crankcase. Thats a no brainer. But all of that thin diesel getting by the rings seems to me to cause smoke, diesel smell, and possibly overfueling via fuel in the crankcase.

You have it diagnosed correctly. Start with getting the pump fixed and change out the filters and oil. Then see how it runs. Jim

The reseal on that pump providing it a rossamaster is a little more in detail then others. as for engine rebuild then you know to had the block linne BOREd and the block bored off the center line of the crank to .010 then hand fit each piston to the hole after you rehoned the sleeves after they are PRESSED in . and ya should have the deck of the block dusted and the contour bores recut . I had one guy that did not like my price on a rebuild that just knew he cpould do it himself . After destroying not one not two but four engines i end up building the last one . D 361 of this age suffer from core shift . Plus pressing in sleeves if the bore is not wright will cause wrinkling and this will cause a rod to get acquainted with the OUTSIDE of the block. No diesel in the crank case will not cause white smoke unless the block is full and the rings are that far gone . How long has it been run this way ?? I always felt that building a D-Dt 361 D-dt 407 was like building a old 2 stroke Detroit with a new set of rebuilt injectors , Will it run , will it live ?? and on the detroits will it RUN AWAY and will i be able to get her shut down before pieces and parts fly. My own 806 is pushen 10000 hours and has never been down , had it's first valve adjustment about 2500 hours ago.

I have a question, when your dad checked the oil and said that it was "full on clean" are you saying clean like new oil? Every diesel that I have been around one hour of running a diesel engine after an oil change the oil is no longer clean. Just wondering.

Yes it was like new. The previous owner stated he had "just" changed the oil. So when dad checked it was full and crystal clear. Should have looked myself. I called the guy when I found the fuel in the oil and he said he just change it because it had diesel in it. Then it all made sense.

a '64 when new would have had the RD pump. has it been changed to the roosa master?

it sounds like you've got other issues here, but i thought i'd share one of my experiences- on a tractor with RD pump- would run fine at low to mid speeds, at the high end would develop a miss. turns out there is a spring in the pump that forces the plungers to "return" to take a charge of fuel for each pulse. with that spring broken the plungers wouldn't return fast enough at high speeds.

so you might get lucky and have a good one with a change of oil and O/H pump.

Any Roosa pump that I repair I insist on the drive shaft assembly too, as that is where the shaft seals are, not in the pump. Also need to know what style line banjo seals are needed, some lines have a step shoulder that needs the nylon seal instead of the steel washers that most Roosa pumps use. Applies to both 361 or 407 IH engines.

It is very common to see a engine start fine and run fair at low speeds. If the smoke and miss come on at about 1200 RPMs and get worse the higher you go that is almost always a advance issue. A stuck nozzle will act simular, but will smoke bad at all RPMs (white smoke) Fuel in your oil is from the drive seals. If someone has replaced the old RD pump with a Roosa you are going to be ok. Good pump shop will get 350-400 bucks to fix you up. If you have the old RD you might be let down. Not sure who still has parts for them. Call around, don be afraid of price shopping. If no one wants to give you a fair price in your area give me a call. I have been through many hundreds of Roosa pumps. Good luck,,, Al 231/757/0064

Word to the wise: Fresh oil in a tractor that's for sale is hiding something...

"Full and clean" should have set of alarms in your head.

If you paid a low enough price, the repairs will be worth the cost of admission.

Pump seals were leaking. Changed "oil" and all filters and it runs
pretty good. Only thing i found that I dont like was alot….alot of
mud and rust in the fuel filter housings. Im surprised the thing was
running at all. Looks like in going to have to do some tank work
too. I only paid 2000 for the tractor. Everything else is ok. TA works
and is strong all hydraulics work and tires are like new. Sheetmetal
is straight as an arrow and the cab is in really good shape.

tractor vet

It's odd; but your reply was useful to me as an outside observer. I have an Oliver 1755 that needs a rebuild; and I've been scared to death to do it. Why? Because I've grown up on an IH/Farmall farm and watched/helped my brothers rebuild a D407 from an 856 twice and a DT407 from a TD15 twice. My one brother, especially, is an extremely careful mechanic and has rebuilt everything on the farm from engines to torque amplifiers to truck engines.

I remember that, to do these IH engines, he did have the blocks machined professionally. Then he bought sleeves of various sizes and pistons of various sizes from the IH dealer. He rented a sleeve pressing rig that could measure the pressure during the press-in. He fretted and sweated over whether the pressure was within tolerance, sometimes getting a sleeve all of the way in before deciding that it wasn't right...pressing it out and pressing in another sleeve with better pressure.

He also was very careful to measure the tolerances of the pistons in the sleeves.

STILL...after one rebuild, the engine started knocking maybe a few hundred hours in. He took it apart to find that one of the sleeves had shifted.

He ended up getting a new block and rebuilding nearly from scratch.

I guess what I learned from this is that, not all engines are created equally from a rebuild standpoint. The guys in the Oliver forum are saying that the 310 in the 1755 is a straightforward rebuild. My (indirect) experience with IH blocks had me doubting that; but at least now I know why.

(quoted from post at 02:16:51 03/12/14) The reseal on that pump providing it a rossamaster is a little more in detail then others. as for engine rebuild then you know to had the block linne BOREd and the block bored off the center line of the crank to .010 then hand fit each piston to the hole after you rehoned the sleeves after they are PRESSED in . and ya should have the deck of the block dusted and the contour bores recut . I had one guy that did not like my price on a rebuild that just knew he cpould do it himself . After destroying not one not two but four engines i end up building the last one . D 361 of this age suffer from core shift . Plus pressing in sleeves if the bore is not wright will cause wrinkling and this will cause a rod to get acquainted with the OUTSIDE of the block. No diesel in the crank case will not cause white smoke unless the block is full and the rings are that far gone . How long has it been run this way ?? I always felt that building a D-Dt 361 D-dt 407 was like building a old 2 stroke Detroit with a new set of rebuilt injectors , Will it run , will it live ?? and on the detroits will it RUN AWAY and will i be able to get her shut down before pieces and parts fly. My own 806 is pushen 10000 hours and has never been down , had it's first valve adjustment about 2500 hours ago.

Click to expand...

You got that right about those 361 and 407 can be tough to overhaul. Then you have the guy who puts the sleeves in the freezer and drives them in with a wood block and the darn engine actually runs. Thing is , one engine doesn't count. Do a bunch of them and then compare results. Another thing often overlooked on all of these diesel engines is piston protrusion over the top of the block. IH never even gave any specs for it. Have to go to engine rebuilders for specs. We all know that valve recession or protrusion is critical(now days we know, old farts like me had to learn that the hard way as there were no specs on that for a good long time either). I taught many a young guys about measuring them up. Some of the vo tech instructors were not even teaching it. Some were.

Some engine offer different thickness of head gaskets now to accommodate different piston protrusion. Most don't. Makes it tough as a mechanic. Ever wonder why one engine starts so nice and next one which is supposed to be identical is a hard starter. It's in the squish.