Can one identify original source of C-123 engine?

djhammerd · Feb 26, 2014

I bought a 51 or 52 Super A (as determined by casting dates) a few weeks ago and have been appreciative of the help I've received on this forum in advance of getting the manuals I've ordered (they did arrive a few days ago).

It has a C-123 engine, so it's not all original. The serial number on the engine is 73218 (no prefix or suffix. It has a zenith carburetor.

I was hoping to be able to find out what year the engine was made (and possibly the model of the tractor it came off of), but have not had any luck. I've called a couple dealers, as well as the Case-IH support line. In addition, I've called a couple other recommended sources (sellers) that someone thought might have records... no luck there either.

Am I out of luck?.... Or is there a resource somewhere that would have engine serial numbers by year of manufacture?

Failing all that, are there clues from physical aspects on the engine I can reveal that may give someone information about when it was manufactured?

Curt Cooke · Feb 26, 2014

Super C's came with a C-123. Why do you think that your's isn't
original?

Dave_Id · Feb 26, 2014

Have you tried to date by casting date code? They
would appear like 4@16@T. The adversand looking
like screws. T was 1950, U and W was used for 1951,
X was used for 1952, etc. The letter V was not
used.

CNKS · Feb 26, 2014

The engine is probably off of a Super C, or much less likely a Super A1. I am not familiar with the serials, there are a couple of people on this forum that can look it up as to year. I will guess a very early Super C. I assume you are saying it is a C123 because the notation is cast into the block? Otherwise it could be have a part number of 354898 which was in the later Super A and Super A1 (one).

Dave_Id · Feb 26, 2014

Sorry, I didn't read your post close enough, I see you checked casting numbers. A C113 can easily be updated to a C123 by slapping in new set of pistons and sleeves. The engine could have come out of a Farmall C.

D Slater · Feb 26, 2014

Supers with 123 use engine serial numbers with letter prefixes. 100,130 and 200, 230 series tractors don't have 123 engine serial numbers high as your engine number. No way to know for sure what tractor that engine is from or power unit parts. 140 and 240 tractors used that serial range of 123 engines. In another post before I said my answer was from a 59 model 140 or 240 if its from a tractor. Since that serial number was in the second month of the year. Look and see if the engine block has a date code ending with a D or a E.

CNKS · Feb 26, 2014

I forgot about the prefixes. Guy Fay's data book say the prefix for the both the C/SC 113 and 123 engines and the SA show FCM. Might help if dj would give the prefix. But, it would seem to me that the 70000+ serial is too low to be an SC number I mentioned, given the numbers for all the other uses? I have SA with the SC block (from the factory). Too cold for me to go outside in the dark freezing and see what the serial is, maybe tomorrow.

djhammerd · Feb 26, 2014

Some of you must have read my post within a minute or so....

I have to apologize for an error I made in my initial posting... I incorrectly said my tractor is a Super C.

It is a Super A....

When I read the post after it was accepted, I noticed my error, then edited the post immediately. I have a friend with a Super C, so that's on my mind also.

My reference to casting dates were about information I found on the transmission, hydraulic unit and the tube. (10.8.W) (1.24.U) (10.16.W)

The engine DOES have C-123 cast into it (left of the serial number)

The serial number does not have any prefix or suffix, only 73218 stamped onto machined casting under plug one.

Slater... Sorry, I did not mean to infer I thought you are wrong, I was just trying to close the loop a little tighter. I have not found a date code on the engine yet. If it's warm enough tomorrow, I will power wash it and look again.

Thank you all for your patience, interest and assistance.

Bob · Feb 26, 2014

FWIW, quite a few years ago I installed a C-123 from our scrapped 161 windrower into a Super A.

The swather had hydraulics, but a belt-driven pump. The engine had the mounting provision for the Super A hydraulic pump.

I don't know what area of the country you are in, and if there would have been any windrowers around, but around here they were common.

<img src = "http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/27Grainfield/IH/161_zps9547245e.jpg">

D Slater · Feb 26, 2014

No problem I just said that was my answer and some reasons for it and I could be wrong. No problem with you asking for more. If someone knows more or has more to add I would welcome being corrected.

djhammerd · Feb 26, 2014

(reply to post at 20:51:28 02/26/14)

Slater.... You may well be right, at least with regards to the model of tractor (if it was a tractor) the motor came from. I just looked at pictures of radiator replacements (as well as pictures of used radiators on eBay. The 140 radiator is the closest match for size and hose configuration for the radiator that is on the tractor now.

I'm saying this because it appears the original Super A radiator had an outlet on the top (going to the engine) that pointed down at an angle toward the engine. The A, B, C and Super C also had the upper hose outlet pointed down toward the engine.

The radiator on my tractor today has a straight out outlet (90 degrees from the radiator) similar to the 140.

Also, if anyone can confirm that the serial numbers on your document represent both the engine serial number as well as the overall tractor serial number (assumed), it would pretty much nail it.

Could someone that has a 140 (preferably 1959, but others also) look at the overall tractor serial number and compare it to the engine serial number (under cyl one), then post whether they are the same or different?

D Slater · Feb 27, 2014

I should have made it clear that the serial numbers I posted the last time is from the IH build records. Those can be looked up on line. Someone that's more computer orientated can probably tell you how to find it simpler than I can.

mkirsch · Feb 27, 2014

Given the additional clue that you have a 140 style radiator, that leads me to believe that your entire front end may have come from a 140.

I'm not sure that there is a definitive way to ever know 100% for sure exactly where your engine came from.

djhammerd · Feb 27, 2014

D Slater..... This is what you posted when I asked why you thought the motor was manufactured in Feb, 59.....

**** "Because if it came from a tractor with that serial number it was probably from a 140 or 240.
If you look at the engine serial numbers the one for each month is the beginning number. See the month serial numbers 73218 will be between. " ****

I went back and looked at the document you posted for me before. The first time I looked at the document, I obviously had problems reading the text on the left (the row headings are more difficult to read than the numbers with them). I didn't realize that both the chassis serial number and engine serial number were listed (DUH). It's clear to me now.

Thank you very much for staying with me on this discussion.

I think you have nailed my engine for having been manufactured in Feb, 1959.

djhammerd · Feb 27, 2014

Mkirsch.... This is the document that D Slater posted for me.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 27, 2014

I have a 1952 Super A that has a 123 block and it is the original block for the tractor.
When I tore it down for a rebuild it had 3in bore sleeves and pistons in it and now it has 3 1/4 bore sleeves.

djhammerd · Feb 27, 2014

(quoted from post at 17:34:51 02/27/14) I have a 1952 Super A that has a 123 block and it is the original block for the tractor.
When I tore it down for a rebuild it had 3in bore sleeves and pistons in it and now it has 3 1/4 bore sleeves.

That's curious.... Are you the original owner? What is the serial number on the motor? Is there a cast in date information on the engine block?

The IH byline is that they didn't put 123 engines in the Super A till 1954, then it was called a Super A1.

Jim Becker · Feb 27, 2014

After the Super C came out with the C-123, the Super A was changed to the C-123 block but with 3" sleeves.

djhammerd · Feb 28, 2014

(quoted from post at 22:07:27 02/27/14) After the Super C came out with the C-123, the Super A was changed to the C-123 block but with 3" sleeves.

This is all fascinating to me. I enjoy learning about the history of machines.

In return, I do need to qualify the statements I have made.... I've only posted information based upon the tractor specifications that have come up when I searched for information online. I'm certainly no expert in any of this. I just like to learn about what I am working on and enjoy looking for information. Learning the back story of the evolution of these tractors is a bonus.

Thanks!

Can one identify original source of C-123 engine?

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