SMTA clutch question...again

Hey guys. Got the new clutch disk and pressure plate from Hy Capacity with the 6 pad button disk put together yesterday. Did the throw out bearing also. Once slid together and bolted up tight I looked thru eh inspection hole on the bottom and noticed that the TO bearing is riding on the release leavers on the pressure plate. There should be a small gap between these right? I used the specs for that adjustment per the IT manual. I"m wondering if this clutch from Hy Cap has a different adjustment? If so I didn"t see any specs in the box. Can this be adjusted from underneath or will I have to pull it back apart to do it? Thanks for the help. DK

Well first off did you turn the flywheel and have the step cut ????? and also if you did was it done correctly ??? NOW as for the adjustments done by the BOOK that is all well and fine for a NEW tractor with little ware everywhere . And MTA is NOT a new tractor and i am dead sure that it has ware everywhere and the BY THE BOOK settings are not going to work. So as to your problem i am not doing the job so i can not see what is going on . BUT the last thing you want to do is start messing with the PPA and barnyard adjusting the fingers . They are set as per what the setting are for . Second off why in gods name did ya put in a 6 button disc in a MTA . I did not put a 6 button disc in my friends S/MTA when we built the engine in it and i am dead sure if his does not slip a four button you won't a 706 will not slip a four button . also for the most part you will learn to hate a button clutch as they do not give you much slippage .

Yes Vet the flywheel WAS turned and WAS done by a VERY reputable PROFESSIONAL with many years as an IH MECHANIC. IF the book adjustments aren't any good, then why is the first thing out of anyone's mouth on here to GET an IT manual and DO IT BY THE BOOK???? As to why it's a 6 button clutch that is what my CASE IH DEALER ordered for me as the replacement. NOW I'm not really looking for a lecture I'm looking for some help in the situation AS I'm sure I'm not close enough to YOU to bring it over to your house and have you do it for me SO I will have to do it MYSELF.

You are confusing the "by the book" advice for a HYDRAULIC TA with your mechanical TA. The hydraulic needs to be adjusted by the book. The book is only a starting point for a mechanical TA. You need to compensate for wear of the linkages.

From your description you must have ZERO free play in the clutch pedal right now. That's not even close to by the book, wear or no wear.

(This is my way, it is reasonably simple)
The TA clutch engages and releases when the master clutch is already released.
Adjust the master clutch so it has freeplay from the platform to the pedal arm. at 1-1/4".
Put a wooden ruler on the pedal are so it sticks out next to and past the clutch lever. With it running and in 4th, let out the clutch and watch on the ruler where it begins to move the tractor.
Adjust the TA clutch so it is fully engaged with Lever forward (throwout just barely off of the fingers) as the master clutch just begins to engage.
This allows the TA clutch to be fully released when the pedal is fully down, and prevents the TA clutch from being used to start loads.
The TA lever should switch from direct to TA about 1/2 of its travel.
Always move the lever as though you were racing.
Fast is best. Never ease the lever for any reason.

Jim

As long as you have yor free travel on the clutch and it is not riding against the throw out bearing then that is good enough , As for the T/A this is where the FEEL adjustments come into play . . Due to ware in the linkage going by the book goes out the window . . You want the release bearing on the T/A clutch to release the T/A all the way and this can be a feel as you go deal. As long as you can slide the pins in forget about the measurements and as long as the bearings are not riding on the fingers your good to go . .
And as far as ME DOING IT OUTSIDE forget it it is to cold . Over the years i have seen a lot of people say they know how to turn a flywheel and cut the step correctly and screw up the job. Then ya also have to take into account as to just how may times it has been cut . The fingers should not be standing out to far so if all the spec.'s on the flywheel are correct then all ya need to do is back off on the clutch free travel adjustment a little so that the throw out bearing is away from the fingers. as when everything start to get acquainted the fingers will move out more and you will have less free travel . When adjust the T/A throw out bearing remove the spring and the headed pin and hold the linkage so the bearing is touching the finger on the T/A pressure plate and adjust that clevis so that you can slide the pin in nice and easy with just a whisker of slop . I a,m sure that there is LOTS of ware on the clevis Replace the spring and try it and the best way is to run the tractor up a hill and shove the clutch down and see how it comes out of gear . IF there is no hanging on the sprag then your good to go IF not then tighten it up a turn or so .

Don't use the book on the hyd. T/A's either as the same thing applys with them WARE on the linkage .

I hear you on not having a flywheel correctly machined.

I recently replaced a clutch on a 674 tractor. I wrote the spec I wanted on the flywheel surface. I got a call from the machinist who was not going to turn it to those specs because it was about .050 off from where the flywheel was currently at. He wouldn't even take my word for what I wanted. He called Ag Parts to verify what I had given him was correct.

I think I've found the problem. I think we are all talking about different things from what I can tell and that's probably my fault for not being clear enough. I do understand that the clutch pedal and the related linkages are well worn, my pedal actually is so worn that it returns on the outside of the deck. That's the next thing on the list to fix. I'm referring to the adjustment of the release arms on the pressure plate. It is to be 2 5/16 per the book. Currently when my clutch pedal is completely back against the operator deck there is no free play in the pedal because it appears that the TO bearing is still in contact with the release arms. Also, if I adjust the pedal so that there is 1 1/8 of space between the pedal and the operator deck the pedal does not come back all the way indicating that the TO bearing is already in the completely released position, or in other words, back as far as it can be. So when I'm under the tractor looking at the clutch and TO bearing, I'm seeing it all the way back, and touching the release arms at the same time. No matter what I do to the pedal or TA adjustments will change this.
My question is this, will I need to split the tractor again to adjust the release arms to properly obtain the small amount of space that should be between the TO bearing and the release arms when the clutch is engaged? If so, how much space is proper? I hope this helps. Sorry for any confusion.

No. The clutch pedal needs to be where it belongs, If the return spring under the platform is broken, or weak it will not pull the pedal against the platform. If the pedal is not controlled enough to have that happen, the clutch pedal pivot must be fixed. A re-bush is pretty easy and inexpensive. Just have it made to the original shaft size and rebuild the shaft when it is warmer.
The clutch Pressure plate lever tips should not be adjusted!! The Vet and I basically gave the same adjustment info.
Jim

Well lets start from the top, , you say your tractor hqas had extreme field testing and everything is plumk slap wore out . Ok Keep the clutch pedal agains the deck plate where it is suppose to set , i do not care how you do this use a tarp strap , NOw adjust the rod from the clutch pedal out to the clutch bell crank and get something like and inch to and inch and 1/8 clearance before you feel the throw out bearing make contact and when the clutch pedal is back up against the stop look under thru the inspection hole tp male sure that you can see day light between the bearing and the release levers , if ya got day light then were good to go , Next step is to remove the spring on the T/A clutch bell crank and see where it is setting while holding it back against the bearing . For get what the BOOK says as to the 3/16ths or what ever it is . Adjust the clevis so that the pin will slid in and the throw out bearing is not touching , here again ya need a little day light . Now you my have to fool around with the T/A lever a little so that when you depress the clutch pedal it does not move while in the forward position But still movers the release bearing enough to release it fully when going into low T/A . You SHOULD have enough adjustment even for wore out pieces and parts. And like i said IF the machine shop did there job correctly you should be good to go . I installed more clutched and T/A's then i like to think about over the years and i used nothing but Hy Capacity pieces and parts and NEVER EVER had one problem with there. They were wright done wright out of the box.The only thing that will screw you up is a incorrect flywheel. If said flywheel is not cut to the 1.406 spec.'s then HUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM Then nothiing you do will help.

My 2 cents--Split the tractor again and put in the fiber disc.

You say you have a lot of play on your clutch pedal and you are going to rebush the pedal after adjusting the clutch if I read you correctly. You need to fix the sloppy pedal first before adjusting the clutch or you will be readjusting the clutch again as that rebushed pedal will throw all your adjustments off in my opinion. Armand

I see no one has asked where the fingers are laying. They should be very close to parallel with the pressure plate. It sounds to me like they are laying pointed toward the rear, the direction they normally move out to as the clutch disc wears. That means one of about three things. Flywheel step cut wrong, pressure plate been resurfaced too many times and out of specs(which I have had happen with HY-Capacity pressure plates) or the disc is wrong thickness. Splitting again would be the only way to do over correctly. A picture of it bolted to the flywheel would show all of us if it is right or wrong. If throwout bearing carrier is way back against the rear it has to be fingers way too far back or completely wrong bearing, carrier assembly.

With a new disk and pressure plate, and the levers too far back, the step in the flywheel is not correct. If only the friction surface was turned and not the step this the situation that will result.

Thank you for the help. I think I'm getting down to the problem. I planned to rebuild the clutch pedal before this tractor ever moved during this whole process along with A LOT of other problems it has. Just was trying to check my work along the way and this just didn't seem right. As I remember it, the release levers were angled a bit back toward the TO bearing, not straight, and the adjusting screws were more flush with the jam nuts than they were on the old plate. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll pull it back apart and see what's going on. I'm almost 100 percent certain the flywheel was resurfaced correctly as it wasn't the machinists first rodeo when it comes to farmalls and I trust him. But I guess anything is possible. Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully I can report some positive news tomorrow.

My copy of the IHC Blue Ribbon Service Training Course Clutch adjustment manual specifies, for the 11" #48965D clutch, on M, MV, MD, and MDV, a gap of 3/16" between the fingers and the bearing. I found on my "H" that a bench adjustment would not work, for some reason. I never could figure out why. I had to make this adjustment from underneath with everything installed. Don"t know why, but I did it, in place, and it works great. Very simple to do, just loosen locknuts, adjust, and tighten. Assuming we're talking the same thing here, this manual doesn't mention the TA feature.

I think it's odd that your pressure plate has adjustable fingers...

I don't recall Dad's W400 having adjustable fingers when he had it apart, and I know my Super H's didn't have adjustable fingers (it was a clutch from a 300).

Hindsight being 20/20 you probably shouldn't have adjusted them and everything would be fine now...

The bench approach will only work if the FW and entire assembly is on the bench. The disk must be in the compressed (Foot off the pedal) condition for the height to be measured. If it is just a separate not installed pressure plate, its fingers are against the PP housing and not in a working position at all. (thinking out loud) Jim

Thanks, Jim, appreciate it.

How much material did they remove when resurfacing as that can be a problem if they ground it probably isnt any worry.

You are probably right. Sometimes we can try to do too good
of a job. And only make it worse. Luckily the stands are still
attached and only 4 bolts tight so it's not hard to try again.