Tractor Vet..IH 6 cyl gas tractor engines

You talk about Premium gas and low ash oil.Why? what is it about those engines that is 'different' and requires the 'special'/premium gas/oil? I just want to know.....Thank you! Steve

Well some say that they are LOW compression engines , but they are not really low compression for a working engine plus the fact that they are a high RPM engine not like the old 4 cyl. as for the low ash oil it was brought out after the 460-560 came out as when they first came out they had lots of problems with them eating exhaust valves . If you read the org. operators manual back in the fuel section it will tell you what grade of gas to run . Myself i never knew it till i bought a nice 706 late model with a 291 at a consignment auction one day as i had already bought three other 706 gassers . When the auctioneer said sold Ohio bound the owner of this tractor came up to me and handed me all his records and all his books he had for this tractor . I got to reading it , yea i sat down at home one evening and read the whole book . And there it was min. now i said MIn. octane req. was 93 RESEARCH method . Now back when these tractors were new reg. grade PUMP gas was 95 octane and hightest was 105 or better . Way back when i was a pup i worked for a construction co. and we had a bunch of gas powered trucks , some straight trucks and some semi's . guess what they required high test of 105 or better . We did not keep gasoline at the shop even though there was a 10000 gallon tank for gas . The owner siad that he did not mind helping someone out if they needed gas IF they asked for it but even back then some people would just come in and fill there tank . So we had and account at the old fuel stop west of town on US 224 and IF you were a full time employee you could buy gas there under the company name and get the discount AS LONG as you PAID cash. I had hot fast cars and they wanted Ethel and i would get good hightest for 13.9 cents a gallon . Something that i have always done till about ten years ago i ran high test in everything When i bought my first gas tractor it got hightest as i would get gas for my pick up that had a 428 SCJ inplace of the junk 360 and it loved hightest my 460 ran great on it never a problem but by around 1980 octane levels started dropping the 73 with the 428 was gone but i still ran hightest the 460 was long gone and in it;s place was a 67 706 gasser and it got fed you guessed it hightest . The old 540 4x14's were long gone and now we have 710 4x16's behind the 706 . My one buddy bought a 766 gasser and i went over to help him plow as he was having problems Ronny was cheap on everything while he and i were in the same field plowing with the same type plows i was running circles around him i was in first high with the stick ahead and he was in third low with the stick back . We stopped and i did a complete tune up on his 766 everything was by the book timing set as per the BOOK and still if he tryed to step up a gear she would start to seeze up . and he was sucking fuel big time . Took a lot of talking to get him to take his tractor one mile down the road to the little gas station and put just one full tank of hightest in it . The difference was night and day as now oh guess what he can now run first high stick ahead . On the 460-560 tractors 89 is the min. octane required . But oh wait a min . just how many times has that head been ground down in her life time . The least i have had to take off a head to get it back flat is.007 and as much a .023. And what about the deck of the block has it been shaved ?? with each shave job the compression goes up . Now the ral killer here is the fact that we can no longer get FORGED PISTONS they si all gone none to be had . and the new and IMPROVED Cast piston can not and will not take the heat like a FORGED piston . I have a collection of 706 pistons that have been replaced due to 87 FRAM gas in 706 and six out of one C221 in a 460 used to haul the daily manure from a 40 cow herd , field was a little soft there was a little hill and a full spreader and third gear yep she melted all six in about two hundred feet . We were able to save the sleeves by useing a rigid hone and some course stones to get the aluim. off But tis tractor is one of then 460 that has had the head off due to burnt valves many times before the low ash came out and that head has been shaved god only knows how many times. Runs great now with 93 in it and will haul the spreader with no issues . It is like this hightest is about twenty cents a gallon over reg. if you use as much as we do it cost use this year around a hundred buck more but normally it is around forty of fifty bucks more over reg. That little extra still does not come close to a repair bill with no labor , now ya want to add in my road labor rate the bill will get ugly . I run the hightest in my S/MTA do i need it ?? probable not but my plugs last longer.My friend Vernon's S/MTA does need it as his is shell we say warmed up a WEEEEEE bit more then mine is as mine will do a good solid 60 Hp. on the dyno and his will do 92 . So for me the tractors get Hightest the War Dept's Durango gets reg. as on it the difference in fuel milage is 1.5 better on hightest then 87 so this does not pencil out Gas milage on the Durango is done everyday because of what the War Dept does for her job .

(quoted from post at 21:50:34 11/25/13) You talk about Premium gas and low ash oil.Why? what is it about those engines that is 'different' and requires the 'special'/premium gas/oil? I just want to know.....Thank you! Steve

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FYI-Octane. A 93 research Octane number is not the equivalent of a pump octane number. Pump octane numbers are an average of two lab ratings. They run a Research Octane and a Motor Octane. Back in the day the only octane availabe came from a RON (research octane engine). IH and other manuals refer to that when they list octane. An 87 pump octane would be derived from a RON of 93 and a MON of 81. R+M/2. I run my 656 on 87 and it runs fine and has for years.

Hey it is your tractor and you do as you want . here in my area it still states on the pump that the fuel you are buying is the research method . Also i would like to see you run and old engine from back in the 60's on 87 octane that required 95 octane i am talken just a plan old 390 2 V reg. fuel not a 390 4V . let lone a 10.5 to 1 it plum will not happen . Even by Clevit performance parts catalog the highest compression piston that you can run on today's best pump gas is a shade over 9 to one and that is on a car not a engine that is under load . and one thing about a tractor engine you will not hear her pinging like on a car or pick up . When she start to die and miss may even backfire and plum stop and lock up it is to late as the damage is done . If ya let them set and cool down they will start back up and seem to run ok but you are kidding yourself as you have scored a sleeve or maybe all of them and you really don't want to look at the pistons . But your the expert as i am sure that you have been building engines for over fifty years and have competed in may drag races and won along with years of tractor pulling and won . I am sure that you know ever aspect of engine machine shop operation and can balance, fit , CC port, rejet carbs , grind a cam , and totally rebuild and repair , and recurve a dist, . I am sure that you raised a family making your living fixing other peoples stuff . And also if you are so CHEAP that and extra forty or fifty bucks a year is going to break you do what you want . I see it all the time on here MY TRACTOR STARTED MISSING AND LOOSEN POWER AND QUIT . Then you see the responce your not getting fuel cause your carb is plugged or your fuel tank has junk in it . Or my tractor started to miss and just stopped and will not turn over but after it cooled down it was fine . I have seen it all BTDT . Working a gas tractor hard with the cast pistons the piston will start to swell and even with .004 skirt to wall clearance and .004- to ..019-.020 more clearance at the ring groves that piston will swell over .025 and all the damage is ABOVE the top ring due to low octane gas . Now if your just playen with your tractor for say light loader work or feeding a round bale where it never comes under load it will probably be ok . BUT if your going to grind a batch of feed and your grinding ear corn thru a 5/8ths screen then HUSTON you will have a melt down , Put a set of plows behind it and go to plowing and you will seeze it up before you make it to the other end of the field. We have a bunch of older tractors over here on small WORKING farms and a lot of them are gas , so yes i have seen it all and i have learned what works and what does not work on old gas tractors that WORK . We have six gas tractors that get worked and the total of gas tractors that i work on when needed is around 25 or so . Also just how many dead tractors have you bought fixed up and sold with a WARRANTY and better then 70% of them were gas tractors that are still out there working .

And furthermore, carbureated engines will burn valves. That's just how they are.

Allan

Yes, the number on the pump is the average of the research and motor methods, but there are other numbers that average out to 87. Research doesn't HAVE to be 93 and motor doesn't HAVE to be 81 in order for R+M/2 to be 87.

Research 91 + Motor 83 = R+M/2 87.
Research 89 + Motor 85 = R+M/2 87.

IIRC, the research and motor methods are "generally" 10 points apart, but not always, and surely the testing technology is improving so the results are getting closer and closer to each other. Octane is money, and the more accurate the testing the more profitable it is for the oil companies.

Plus you also just know those oil companies are cheating the octane rating a little. What's saying the 87 you buy isn't 86 or even 85? "Whoops, guess our blending system is a little out of calibration."

Im staying out of this battle, but Id love to see a pic of the pump sticker you get your gas from. Got to be an old pump.

I just love when these come up and vet says "use high test gasoline" and someone else comes along and throws up the "Well I use 87 octane gas, and it's an average of research and motor method and 100 octane research + 74 octane motor equals 87 pump gas so it's fine in my 6 cylinder."

Allen if ya run the low ash oil in the binders they will not burn the valves . But here again this lesson we learned the hard way as for a while Eugene was eating and exhaust vale each and every feed grinding and this was before he and i started farming together . I was not coming up with a fix and nobody around here had and answer all i kept getting was oh it is just the nature of the beast . Not until i was talking to Clyde Burkshire did i come up with and answer to this problem as Clyde called a friend of his and i talked to Bill and i can not remember his last name but he was and old I H dealer from Marion Id. and Bill told me flat out your not running LOW ASH oil in that tractor and he was correct as Eugene was running Plain old what ever was cheap . Once he changed to low ash , now this has been thirty years ago and also got the rest of the guys to switch i have not had to do a valve job on any valve jobs since . I shot myself in the foot by doing this as the money from doing valve jobs stopped Fuel and oil are the biggy's on the I H gassers .

Jim's opinion is in alignment with Mkirsh. I also believe that PC style teflon regulated oil seals will eliminate cokeing of the valve stems. I have no issue with low ash oil, but I believe the ash in current major brand blends is just peachy fine for tractors. I like 15 40 diesel in all of them. Jim

> Plus you also just know those oil companies are cheating the octane rating a little. What"s saying the 87 you buy isn"t 86 or even 85?

Auto manufacturers will be blamed if their cars don"t run correctly on the gasoline they specify for them. You can be sure that they are testing.

And oil companies NEVER let that happened 40-50 years ago.

(quoted from post at 21:50:34 11/25/13) You talk about Premium gas and low ash oil.Why? what is it about those engines that is 'different' and requires the 'special'/premium gas/oil? I just want to know.....Thank you! Steve

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Tractor Vet stated 93 Reasearch Octane Number. All I did was was point that out. Burn what ever the heck you want to. Some peoples kids! LOL

Most current quality motor oils are as low ash as IH Low Ash was back in the 1960s. Auto manufaturers have seen the benefit of low ash oil too. The current IH Low Ash is still one of the leaders in low ash oil but all "synthetic oils" have lower levels and some conventionals like Castrol GTX also have a lower level of sulfated ash too.

What makes no sense is that until the last couple years sulphated ash was present at an elevated level in diesel engine oil and people were constantly posting how it was better than typical gas engine oils. The "new" government requirement of ULSD has resulted in all (?) diesel engine oils also being low in sulfated ash. So now recommending diesel oil for a gas engine is "OK" but a few years ago it was the exact opposite of what IH and others told owners.

(quoted from post at 09:24:41 11/26/13) > Plus you also just know those oil companies are cheating the octane rating a little. What"s saying the 87 you buy isn"t 86 or even 85?

Auto manufacturers will be blamed if their cars don"t run correctly on the gasoline they specify for them. You can be sure that they are testing.

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Modern vehicles have computers in them that compensate for low-octane gas by changing the timing and fuel mixture. You would have no idea that you're not getting what you paid for because the car is running just fine.

The only testing being done is by government agencies, and then only after giving the oil company plenty of advance notice that they're coming, of course.

These conversations seem to come up every now and again and it's always over my head.

I'm pretty sure my aluminum pistons on my Super A are forged ...
My valves are new and now have seats with three angles, maybe I could use lower octane fuel, but I don't cause I can find 93 with no ethanol.

But all I know is this I use non-ethanol 93 octane
I use CNH 30 weight oil (says 'low Ashe")
12 volt gel battery
Electronic ignition
Chevy alternator

My tractor will fire up in half a second in 20 degree weather.

Ash was included in IH oil to counteract the results of the sulfur in the fuel. The sulfur left behind after combustion would mix with water in the oil and become sulfuric acid. This acid would attack the bearings.

Because of the high ash content of their diesel oil IH went to a 200 hour oil change interval when using IH No. 1 oil. The oil change interval was kept at 100 hours for other oil.

With the advent of low sulfur diesel fuel the need for ash in the oil has decreased. The sulfur was removed for pollution control reasons.

The IH Low Ash oil had an ash content of .5%. IH No. 1 Oil was about 2% ash.

That's how I recall it. The ash level in diesel engine oil was extremely high - the exact opposite of what IH recommended for gas engines.

I said a few years ago but it looks like ULSD first came on the scene in 2006.

Our local co-op sells 90+ without any ethanol, all my gassers run good on it and it stores in my tractors very well without any gumming. Last tank was $3.50 gal.

I can some what understand the logic behind the high test gas. But when it comes to the low ash oil I'm a little skeptical. How does the lack of using Internationals low ash oil cause damage to the engine? I will be the first one to tell you that I have not seen it all nor have I done it all but I have yet to tear down a engine and see any parts that look like they have damage caused by the acid you are all talking about. Then if you are saying that the oil causes valve failure I'm a little skeptical on that also, how does engine oil come in contact with a valve seat any way if you have a sound power plant. If you are getting oil in your combustion chamber something is not doing its job. All in all I'm not getting the need for low ash oil. The way I see it as long as it if filled with a quality oil and changed regularly how is that going to affect the engine. I personally use Country Mark 15/40 in every thing on the farm but my wife's new Chevy car. I stand ready to be corrected and to be told how my theory is wrong. The way I see it there is a lot of 706 through 766 gas tractors spread through out this land that are burning cheap pump gas and shell 15-40 today and a lot will still be running it this spring when planting starts.