Lighting problems with my M (kicking my butt!)

Lighting problems started several months back when I rewired everything together with a new 4 pos. light switch. Everything seemed to work OK, had good lights until one day no more lights. The ampmeter still worked OK,(good needle movement) just no lights. This was all happening when I still had a distributor ignition. Now I have changed over to a mag ignition. Now that my ignition switch is hooked up to the mag, the only needle movement should be influenced by the 4 pos. switch, RIGHT?? Well that's not happening anymore. No movement at all.

Well I thought, maybe I lost ground somewhere and let it go at that. The M was still running OK as is, so I decided not to trouble shoot it till after new paint and a new harness from wiringharnesses.com/ Well that's where I'm at right now, and still no lights. I did polarize the gen. BTW.


The ampmeter needle does not move now no matter what postion the switch is on, (B,D,H, or L) whereas before it did. (before new paint) I put a new fuse in and still nothing. I'm suspecting that the new 4 pos. switch may be defective. As you can see from the pictures, I seem to have good ground everywhere. That test line is coming from the battery. I'm thinking about buying another switch, but man those things are pricey. Am I missing something here? What say ye? HELP!!




TIA
Regards
Patrick
'49M

Make sure the system is grounded good. Did you check the field risister on the back of light switch?

What's the protocal for checking the field resistor sir? Something simple or something complicated? I'm not at all familiar. I'm a very dumb novice when it comes to electricals on anything. Just was never around it much. But I'm trying to learn.

Regards
Patrick
'49M

The field resistor has nothing to do wth lites. H

You need a meter first check for ground on the lite to the battery then if you have ground check for 6v is the new sw an original or one "that will replace" You should use an original they are plentyful and bullet proof. You mite need help from someone who knows how to use a meter and also knows how your system works your not the only one who bought a new sw and with a paint job now has problems.

What changes did you make to wiring when converting to mag ignition? My suspicion is that the ign & lites got their power from a common point. Is it possible that when removing the ign feed the lite feed inadvertantly also got removed?
Keep us posted.
Willie

(quoted from post at 23:48:36 11/08/13) You need a meter first check for ground on the lite to the battery then if you have ground check for 6v is the new sw an original or one "that will replace" You should use an original they are plentyful and bullet proof. You mite need help from someone who knows how to use a meter and also knows how your system works your not the only one who bought a new sw and with a paint job now has problems.

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Hi Gene. As you can see in the pix, I have the hot wire off the battery clipped on to the light. The light does not shine unless I touch the bottom mounting bolt of the light to any bare part of the steering post. Also when I touch the light switch itself, the light will shine. I was thinking that was enough proof that the steering post and ampmeter box have good ground. RIGHT? The switch I'm using is a repro of the original 4 pos. switch. I don't have an original, but now that you mentioned it, I'll be looking for one on ebay. They list there occasionally.

I'm thinking about letting it go for now, and concentrate on getting my mag on, and getting it timed, and get the tractor running again. Maybe that will shake things up a bit in the system. After all, the tractor does need to be running before I can use John's troubleshooting chart on it. I just want to see if that needle will move any after the tractor starts up, because that needle right now is just not moving at all. There's a glitch there somewhere, and maybe that will help finding it.

Like I said before in my first post, I did have lights at one time using the new switch after rewiring the system. Then one day, POOF, lights out, and it's been like that ever since.

Best regards
Patrick
'49M.

(quoted from post at 02:20:24 11/09/13) What changes did you make to wiring when converting to mag ignition? My suspicion is that the ign & lites got their power from a common point. Is it possible that when removing the ign feed the lite feed inadvertantly also got removed?
Keep us posted.
Willie

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Hi Willie. The wiring is basically the same with either ignition. The only difference is the ignition switch being connected to the magneto instead of the distributor. The magneto ignition is totally independent of the charging system. Now that brings up another question. Now that the charging system no longer has an ignition switch, does it stay hot all the time or what. ??? Not sure just how that works. Thanks.

Best regards
Patrick
'49M

You need an OHM meter hook one lead to batt ground then other lead to ALL componets to make sure they have ground to the battery gen,reg and lite sw. I have originals if you need one. Do you have the correct reg for your gen as not one fits all. What is the Delco-Remy # on the gen.

Mag sw is grounded at the place where its mounted. You time the mag on TDC make sure the rotor is pointed at the tower when it trips. #1 is about one oclock position rite at the area where the coil cover and body of the mag. I make a mark on the body of the mag where #1 wire goes then remove the cap and watch where the rotor stops and snaps when it fires it must be correct for good starting. The gears that drive the rotor can be off a tooth and it makes for hard starts. Mag fire on TDC then when engine runs goes to 30 some advance.

I am going to be complete in my discussion, so some might not apply.
First to assure there is no mag damage do not connect it up as though it was the coil and points system!!!!!!!
The mag works with no connection at all except to the plug wires. It must never get electricity in the small side terminal.
The side terminal is a kill terminal connected to the mag points, it is used to stop the mag from operating (shutting off the tractor)by being grounded through a very different acting ignition switch that looks the same as the old one except that it has only one terminal not two. It is a grounding switch. The wire from that single terminal goes to the side terminal on the Mag. The switch is open when pulled out (the opposite of the point and coil switch) The switch body is grounded through the oval electrical box, completing the grounding of the Mag to stop the engine, when pushed in.
The original ignition button can be used if the wire feeding it from the load side of the amp meter is removed from the amp meter and grounded to the box. Using it this way is confusing because it must be pushed in for run and pulled out to stop. (not recommended but works while the correct switch is on its way.)

DO Not Connect voltage to the Mag!!

The lights must get electricity to operate. The new light switch is not getting electricity to the correct terminal. Farmall Cub Dot Com has nice pictures of the wiring of the switch. The included diagram is correct. Note the F terminal on the cutout is not used, leave it disconnected as shown in the diagram.

The Amp meter is connected only to the Big stud on the starter switch that also connects to the battery with 10 gauge wire(Ms have several switch systems for the heavy current to the starter motor. It must connect to the stud connecting to the battery Negative terminal at the starter switch for 6V positive ground from the factory setup.

The other side of the amp meter connects to only two places: The Cutout Relay Bat terminal with a 10 gauge wire, and to the light switch fuse terminal as shown.

The F terminal on the Generator is connected to the lowest shown terminal on the light switch. It is a ground to operate system. which means the light switch provides ground for the field, either through the resistor (low charge "L") or directly to ground through the switch body and light box (High charge and all other positions)
The light switch is in the same housing as the Charge control switch and mounted on the same shaft, but electrically they are separate.
Your light switch is well grounded (tested with a light in your pic) that is a good start as one common issue is either rust in the connections to ground, or new paint.

This will make it operational. Jim
Proper diagram from Bob Melville

around 6 OHMs

Regulator or cutout? It does sound like something in the switch has gone bad, assuming you have power TO the switch.

As Janicholson stated above, mag wiring is a lot different from batt/dist ignition.
On a mag there is one wire running to the switch & to ground. This a kill switch & shorts out the points/mag coil. There is to be no connection of any kind between the mag & battery.
Ref ampmeter moving- with a mag ignition, there is no connection between batt & ign. Without lights working, there is no load on batt except starter. When the motor starts, generator will begin charging, when gen voltage gets higher than batt voltage, cutout relay will close & show a slight + on the meter. Turn the 4 position to H & it will show a larger + reading. When motor & gen stop, the relay will open & there will be no connection to batt, thus ampmeter should show 0.
HTH
Willie

Hi willie, this is the schematic I used when I rewired the system before new paint, using dist. ignition. And like I said before, everything worked just fine. The lights worked, the switch worked and it would make the ampmeter react depending on which position the switch was turned to. And even after 'no lights', the ampmeter would still react depending on which postion the switch was turned to.


This is the schematic that I'm using now, and as you can see, the charging system is the same on both. The ignition switch is what sets them apart, obviously.



Thanks.
Best regards
Patrick
'49M

(quoted from post at 06:00:47 11/09/13) Do you have the correct reg for your gen as not one fits all. What is the Delco-Remy # on the gen.

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Hi Gene, after scraping the paint off the tag on the gen., the numbers appeared very faint, and hard to read. Here's what I come up with: "101355___8B24" Does any of that look familiar? I'm also posting this picture to show my current set-up, and yes indeed it is a cut-out relay. Both relay and gen. look factory original to me, but who knows. Notice also the "F" terminals on both pieces wired together. That doesn't show up in the two schematics posted above. My IH service talks about this and I quote: "If the battery is fully charged it is best to operate with the "F" terminal lead wire connected to the resistance terminal "F" on the box so that the generator produces a low range output. This low output is approximately 4 amperes on the 6 volt systems." All of that is a little over my head, but that's what it says. I'm going to go with it and not remove the wire.



I'm going to start up another tread for the magneto timing, as I have a few questions regarding that also. This tread is just getting to strung out.

Thanks, and best regards.
Patrick
'49M