Troubles adding hydraulics to an M

hiperdart · Sep 29, 2013

Hi all I"m new around here but this looks like a great site! Anyway, I"m trying to add live hydraulics to an M and I thought I had it all plumbed right but today when I tried it out they do not work. The pump seems to be pumping but I"m not getting any fluid to the valve. Any ideas??? I"m attaching some pictures of how I have it plumbed, please let me know if I"ve done something wrong here.
Thanks!
Tim

hiperdart · Sep 29, 2013

pic1

hiperdart · Sep 29, 2013

pic2

kopeck · Sep 29, 2013

You have the valve plumbed into the counter shaft driven pump, not the live one. That must be an M&W pump?

K

Bob M · Sep 29, 2013

If the valve guts are still in the Liftall reservoir, pull the Liftall lever fully back and secure it in that position. That should get your system working.

Janicholson · Sep 29, 2013

The pressure out of the live pump connects to the input to the christmas tree valve directly. The input to the live pump comes from the bottom ov the Liftall sump. The discharge (not pressure) of the christmas tree valve goes to the reservoir Prefferably into the top to assure cooling. the pressure up and down go to the cylinder. Jim

kevinj54 · Sep 29, 2013

This is how it should look

And you need a relief valve in the line from pump to christmas valve

Janicholson · Sep 29, 2013

Thanks. Jim

D Slater · Sep 29, 2013

Like Bob said you may have the M&W system that used the IH liftall valving. With that system the pressure line went in where the pump drive shaft did and the suction hole inside the unit was blocked. Looks like that's where your pressure line may be going.
If so like Bob said the liftall operating lever needs locked to the rear for pressure out the side port going to the remote control valve. Then the lever on the remote control valve is used to direct pressure.
Also will ad that if you have the system I mention the IH relief valve inside the liftall unit was used for pressure relief.
Also forgot to say with that set up the relief pressure was raised to 1000 PSI with part included. GPM was reduced some with the setup compared to not going through the liftall system.

pete 23 · Sep 29, 2013

If you did the full M&W conversion, running the pressure in through a special fitting that takes the place of the original pump drive coupler, removed the gears, then welding the original suction tube shut inside, it should work. Then it uses the original relief valve and you lock the original lever into the lift position to use the 4 way valve you have added.

hiperdart · Sep 29, 2013

Thanks for all the help! I'm not sure if I have the M&W pump or not how can I tell? Just a little more background on this, this was a working set up a friend of mine had and that's why I'm a bit confused as to why it's not working. I wasn't there when it was pulled off the other tractor so that's why I wanted to be sure I had the lines going to the right places, but I really think I have them right. This set up does have the line that goes in where the drive use to be and I have it plumbed so that the pressure side of the pump goes in there. Here's the thing, when I went to install the belly pump into the tractor it wouldn't fit and I discovered that it was hitting the clutch. I then got comparing it to another belly pump I had and it had a clearance area for the clutch. So what I did was take the guts out of the modified pump and moved them to the other housing, including drilling and taping a new hole for the pick up line. It all fit then. I do remember seeing that something was welded up inside the pump. The other thing I noticed was that it looked as though the parts where the lever connects had been changed to not really do anything at all and that's how it feels now when you move the lever, almost as though it's disconnected. Anyway, I hope all of this makes sense. I really helps to have the input from everyone on here. I'm wondering if I need to drop that pump back out and see inside it again?
Thanks!
Tim

hiperdart · Sep 29, 2013

Thanks for posting the pictures. I see how that would work well that way. I was just trying to use this set up the way it was on another tractor but I may have to change it to be like yours. Thanks for the help!!
Tim

kevinj54 · Sep 30, 2013

You have the pressure hose to the drain or bottom return.

D Slater · Sep 30, 2013

Some thoughts, you must have a real late model M or someone installed a 12 inch clutch in it for the liftall housing to hit. If you just removed the plate from the reservoir with all parts left bolted to it and it worked before and bolted back on a later reservoir it should work now. Unless the operating lever on the inside didn't get put in the correct place when you installed the parts back in. Easy to do. Suspect that's your problem if its the system to work with the IH liftall valving. Operating lever needs to be operational.
Positive you have a M&W hydraulic pump. M&W made several ways to install the systems and owners also changed or added things. It appears from the picture that you have the system I described. But I can't be positive, not there.
Another way to go is just use the unit as a reservoir and run the pressure hose to the remote control valve with a tee in the pressure line and a relief valve and line back under no pressure to a reservoir opening. Or if the relief in the unit still works install a tee in the pressure line and a hose to where the pressure line goes now.
Welcome for the help. Just hope its the correct info for what you have. Lots of times wish I was there to look.

mkirsch · Sep 30, 2013

The way it's hooked up, all you're doing is circulating the oil in the reservoir. You're sucking it out of the front drain and pumping it back into the rear drain.

I don't know how it could have possibly worked like that on another tractor.

Luckily the fix is rather simple. Just connect the hose coming out of the pump with the 45 degree fitting to the hose that is coming out the side of the tractor.

D Slater · Sep 30, 2013

May be wrong but look close at the picture. The pressure line is not going to the drain plug hole. looks to be the type where fittings were used to go up inside and into the pump drive hole after the shaft is removed. looks to me like he has the setup in the lower picture. Even though it says H a M worked the same.
If everything inside the liftall is correct for that M&W pressure system it will work how its plumbed if the operating lever is locked back.

kevinj54 · Sep 30, 2013

That could be, but then I believe the old operating lever is removed and the system uses the internal relief.

He has not said if the belly unit was gutted out. I assumed it was like mine with lift all and M&W live to the rear.

D Slater · Sep 30, 2013

Did your reservoir housing have a little lever on the inside with a nose on it to go in the slot pictured when you installed the plate on? Little lever with nose is on the same shaft as the operating lever.

D Slater · Sep 30, 2013

That system was made to operate just like the original with or without a remote control valve, only with continuous hydraulic when the engine was running. Original operating rod controlled things. If a remote control valve was installed it was controlled and operated just like with a countershaft driven pump.
Whether everything inside is still correct for it to work remains to be seen.

pete 23 · Sep 30, 2013

The way you have it hooked up, the original lever has to be engaged inside to operate the internal valve.

mkirsch · Sep 30, 2013

If that were the case it would be squealing up a storm through the relief valve, lugging the engine, and getting HOT HOT HOT in short order.

D Slater · Sep 30, 2013

No, if the piston in the liftall valving is in the neutral position the oil will just circulate like it does when it driven by the counter shaft.
Control lever and inside linkage is hooked to the piston. When the rod is pulled back the buypass port to circulate is closed off. When a remote control valve is installed and the rod locked back the oil circulates through the remote control valve and back to the reservoir unless its operated. Thinking he didn't get the linkage hooked inside the unit and the piston is setting in neutral and no pressure to the port going to the remote control valve.

hiperdart · Sep 30, 2013

Thanks for the picture, that helps me to remember more what it looked like in there. I do think it had that for the lever to hook up to, I must have just not gotten it back together right. I hope to get to pull it back out one night this week to see. As for the clutch could it be that I have the clutch for a super M? My Dad rebuilt the motor in this tractor before we lost him and I remember him talking about using either a super M motor or at least the pistons from one, I remember him commenting that they were higher compression. I'm wondering now if he used the clutch from one if they are different. I'll check back with you later in the week when I get time to pull that out, hopefully it's a simple fix. Thanks again,
Tim

hiperdart · Sep 30, 2013

Thanks for the help, I see that now and I'm betting that's where the problem is. I'm hoping to get to work on it one night this week, I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks!
Tim

hiperdart · Oct 2, 2013

It's fix and working great!!! Thanks to everyone for the input on this. I didn't have the lever hooked up, I took it all back apart and fix that, hooked it all up tonight and with the lever in the back position it works great! Hope to play in the dirt with it some this weekend

Thanks again everyone!
Tim

PS here's a pic of what it looked like inside, maybe this will be helpful to someone down the road. I'm not really sure what's been modified but maybe you guys can tell.

hiperdart · Oct 2, 2013

pic

D Slater · Oct 3, 2013

Glade to know and thanks for the feedback. Lots of time we never know if the problem was solved.

Troubles adding hydraulics to an M

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