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Is this a good price for this T-9 dozer?

L

Leop

New User
I went to look at this T-9 yesterday (10 hr drive) and took detailed pictures of every nut on her, but the camera memory had been taken by my wife and I didn't notice until I got home!

http://merced.craigslist.org/grd/3629287563.html

What do you guys think of it from what little you can see in his picture?

A few questions for you experts:

1) The BeeGee pump is whining. Is that normal?

2) She can not hold herself up on the dozer blade after letting the control go. There is a fair amount of leakage at both cylinders shaft seal when they are under load. I assume this is why she drops. Can I still get seals? I worry more about the bushing though. I assume they wear too? Are there rebuild kits of any kind? Or does it go in the lathe for a bore out and rebush?

3) I have to push the right hand side clutch down all the way to the floor board before it will disengage the track enough to let the brake stop the track on that side. Can this be adjusted, or is it an indication that the clutch pack needs work?

4) Does anyone have a picture of a badly worn sprocket. When people say sharp points, exactly how sharp do the mean?

5) Any comments on the gas motor versus Diesel? I see a lot more TD9s than T9s. Any comments on the gas motor running on propane? She sure started easy that's for sure!

P.S. I know that dozers are a big commitment of time and money, and have been told many times to just rent. But when you fall in love with an International, renting a Komatsu just won't do. Nevertheless, feel free to remind me of the money pit nature of dozers. Perhaps it will help me come to my senses before I get one :D
 
(quoted from post at 20:14:45 04/18/13) The basic tractor weighs 11,800. Which means it will
fetch 1320.00 as scrap in our area. Offer him 2000.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you will need well over $3000 to begin fixing things. Also if you are paying someone to haul it and it is 10 hrs away, that is going to be about 13 hrs away by rollback. Do you know what hauling it that far will cost you? That is a "Love Affair" I would d*m well end . After you fix it
then what? You will have about $6000 in it and it would be worth $3500 if you tried to sell it. Also that engine loves the gasoline.It will be a constant money pit.
 
After that, nobody's allowed to say anything about it being a shame that it ended up going for scrap.

You got a guy here that wants to preserve a piece of history, probably a rare piece being a T9 rather than a TD9, and you're telling him to leave it for scrap because it's going to cost too much?

If cost was a factor I'd say 90% of the old tractors would be scrap by now...
 
I'll second that. If you want it, buy it knowing you'll have a lot of money into it. But once you have it fixed up, you'll get lots of enjoyment out of it. Is that worth it to you? No more are being made.

My 73 year old father is thinking of buying a 420 JD dozer. Does he need it? Absolutely not, would he enjoy it? Yup. His money.

Just know it will cost you most than it is worth. You already made the trip once, you must really want it.
 
Hey, I'm just saying it isn't a screaming deal. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy it. :lol: I have a money losing project in the shop as we speak and it doesn't bother me a bit.
 
Matt E , you nailed it. You stated that your 73 year old Dad was thinking of buying a 420 JD dozer. My first thought was why would a guy that age want with a dozer? It then occured to me that I had a birthday about 10 days ago and am also 73 years old. GO FOR IT.

Better get to the shop to get my 22-36 McCormick Deering running while I can still crank the old bear. Joe
 
That IS a long way to haul it, but there are all
kinds of guys with hot shots, maybe you could find
out who's running empty past this T-9 toward your
house, and make a deal that way. Do you attend
tractor shows, or belong to a club? I see people
advertising for this kind of service all the time.
 
i think it is a decent looking machine. running on propane, it should be pretty clean inside., as far as the cylinders, any good hydraulic shop can rebuild or update them. i dont think it is a bad buy, and it has a disk with it too.
 
First off I want to say thank you for all your input. I really appreciate it.

Putting aside the expense of moving it for a moment. What do people think it would cost if just things I mentioned were fixed? Someone mentioned $3000 and people seemed to accept that number. Would that just be for parts or parts and labor? I have always worked on cars and restored a few as well so my hope is that I can handle most of the work myself.

Also is the clutch dropping too low on the right had side most likely an adjustment issue or is it indicative of something seriously wrong with that side’s clutch pack?
 
The pedal on the floor is the steering brake. If the pedal is going down that far the brake lining is worn out or completely off the band. On the back of the bevel gear housing there are two 2" inspection holes, for checking the bands. Replacing (relining) the bands is not expensive, but it will take about 4 hours to get to them. The seat, fuel tank and bevel gear housing cover must be removed. The bands can be removed without disturbing the steering clutches. If you have restored cars, you can handle changing the brake bands. As it sits, I personally don't know why it would need 3000.00 in repairs, if the only thing wrong with it is the steering brake. People are always freaking out over the undercarriage, which they are certain is shot, every time someone posts a tractor like this. I would recommend,however, that you find a proper lubricator for the front idlers and the bottom and top rollers, to try to preserve what is left of them. Also see if the guy has a track adjusting wrench. If you're planning on using this thing, you'll want to keep the tracks tight, or else if the tracks do happen to be near the end of their life, they'll come off when you least expect it. you'll also want to invest in a round-nose spade for cleaning the track frames when they become full of dirt. If the owner doesn't have a track wrench, I have one you can have for the cost of shipping.
 
(quoted from post at 03:25:43 04/20/13) The pedal on the floor is the steering brake. If the pedal is going down that far the brake lining is worn out or completely off the band. On the back of the bevel gear housing there are two 2" inspection holes, for checking the bands. Replacing (relining) the bands is not expensive, but it will take about 4 hours to get to them. The seat, fuel tank and bevel gear housing cover must be removed. The bands can be removed without disturbing the steering clutches. If you have restored cars, you can handle changing the brake bands. As it sits, I personally don't know why it would need 3000.00 in repairs, if the only thing wrong with it is the steering brake. People are always freaking out over the undercarriage, which they are certain is shot, every time someone posts a tractor like this. I would recommend,however, that you find a proper lubricator for the front idlers and the bottom and top rollers, to try to preserve what is left of them. Also see if the guy has a track adjusting wrench. If you're planning on using this thing, you'll want to keep the tracks tight, or else if the tracks do happen to be near the end of their life, they'll come off when you least expect it. you'll also want to invest in a round-nose spade for cleaning the track frames when they become full of dirt. If the owner doesn't have a track wrench, I have one you can have for the cost of shipping.
Click to expand...

Fritz,

Thank you for the information and the offer of the wrench.

I have seen people inspecting the tracks and it seams very straightforward. However, I can't seam to find the dimensions, and the specific instructions on how they should be taken for the T-9's. From what I have seen a steel ruler, caliper, micrometer are all you need. You then plug those dimensions into a table from the maker and the table decodes how much life is left. But where are these dimensions and tables for the T-9? Is any of this available for the T-9s?

Any comments on the rams? I have a large lathe and don't mind boring out the end plates, re-bushing, and using a generic seal if I have to, but will I necessarily have to?

What do you think of the price?
 
It isn't an IH blade (and they didn't make one to my knowledge) so it is tough to tell what you will find in the cyls. That will also make it tough for people to know stuff like ____ is the seal kit your order. Like you said, it probably wouldn't be too hard to measure them and find seals. You would probably be better off going that route.
 

I almost forgot.

Somone has welded a bead all the way around the front track "wheel? Idler?" in order to build up the worn metal there. I have seen this done on other tractors as well.

Was this common? Is it ok for it to have been fixed this way?
 
(quoted from post at 01:10:23 04/21/13) It isn't an IH blade (and they didn't make one to my knowledge) so it is tough to tell what you will find in the cyls. That will also make it tough for people to know stuff like ____ is the seal kit your order. Like you said, it probably wouldn't be too hard to measure them and find seals. You would probably be better off going that route.
Click to expand...

Yes that makes sense.

Do you have a T-9 or TD9?

Leo
 
(quoted from post at 21:37:16 04/20/13)
(quoted from post at 01:10:23 04/21/13) It isn't an IH blade (and they didn't make one to my knowledge) so it is tough to tell what you will find in the cyls. That will also make it tough for people to know stuff like ____ is the seal kit your order. Like you said, it probably wouldn't be too hard to measure them and find seals. You would probably be better off going that route.
Click to expand...

Yes that makes sense.

Do you have a T-9 or TD9?

Leo
Click to expand...

No, I have a WD-9. Therefore I follow the dozers some because they run the same engine. I wouldn't mind on someday. If you "need" a TD-21 I know of a really nice one. IIRC it doesn't have a blade.
 
(quoted from post at 13:42:50 04/21/13)
(quoted from post at 21:37:16 04/20/13)
(quoted from post at 01:10:23 04/21/13) It isn't an IH blade (and they didn't make one to my knowledge) so it is tough to tell what you will find in the cyls. That will also make it tough for people to know stuff like ____ is the seal kit your order. Like you said, it probably wouldn't be too hard to measure them and find seals. You would probably be better off going that route.
Click to expand...

Yes that makes sense.

Do you have a T-9 or TD9?

Leo
Click to expand...

No, I have a WD-9. Therefore I follow the dozers some because they run the same engine. I wouldn't mind on someday. If you "need" a TD-21 I know of a really nice one. IIRC it doesn't have a blade.
Click to expand...

A TD-21 would be really nice, but Wisconsin is really far from California! How much is the tractor for sale?
 
I think the only specs you're going to find on the track chain is going to amount to comparing it to the dimensions of a new chain. Contact a dealer that sells ITM or Berco (there's 100s of them) and tell them what you have. The pitch used on a T-9 is pretty common. Any guy wanting your business will be glad to provide you with the specs you need to help you make a decision. A less scientific way (without calipers) to get a good idea of the condition of the chain is to look and see how much of the adjustment screw is showing. If there is a lot, and the wishbone is near the end of the track frame, the chain is stretched pretty good, but not unsalvageable. Feel the bushings, where the sprocket rides. If there is a notch formed by the sprocket tooth on the bottom half of the bushing, and it feels round on top, then the bushings have never been turned and can be turned, to get some of your adjustment back. However, if you feel a couple of weird angles on the top of the bushing, this means the bushings are on their 1st and possibly 2nd turn. At this point the chains are finished and you should get a price on new chains. To turn the bushings, the tracks are removed from the machine and taken to a track press. The links are pressed apart and the bushings repositioned. The cost of this service is about $750/side. To shorten the tracks even more, there is a company called Pigeon Products that makes weld-in sprocket cups. These are usually installed while the tracks are away at the press. These cost about $100/side. These cups are actually ordered before the tracks are removed, because if the sprocket isn't worn down enough, they won't fit. They will send you six cups for free to make the test. Regarding the cylinders, custom packing kits are easier to find today than in years past. Since this is not a high-speed nor high-pressure system, I doubt there is anything wrong that would require machining. I would bet that in cold weather it wouldn't melt the snow off the cylinders. The drifting problem you describe could also be caused by a loose piston retainer nut. As the cylinders are plumbed parallel, one defective cylinder will affect them both. A good price? Well, that's something you're going to have to decide for yourself. He's probably got some "throw-away" engineered into the price, I.E., he'll take $3500, which isn't too bad. I've found that the thing that brings people around to your way of thinking the easiest, is to have the $100s fanned out while you're making the deal. And I just remembered that the plugs I told you about, in the rear of the bevel gear housing, are actually for greasing the pilot bearing in the steering clutch, but you can still see the bands.
 
(quoted from post at 15:42:54 04/21/13)
(quoted from post at 13:42:50 04/21/13)
(quoted from post at 21:37:16 04/20/13)
(quoted from post at 01:10:23 04/21/13) It isn't an IH blade (and they didn't make one to my knowledge) so it is tough to tell what you will find in the cyls. That will also make it tough for people to know stuff like ____ is the seal kit your order. Like you said, it probably wouldn't be too hard to measure them and find seals. You would probably be better off going that route.
Click to expand...

Yes that makes sense.

Do you have a T-9 or TD9?

Leo
Click to expand...

No, I have a WD-9. Therefore I follow the dozers some because they run the same engine. I wouldn't mind on someday. If you "need" a TD-21 I know of a really nice one. IIRC it doesn't have a blade.
Click to expand...

A TD-21 would be really nice, but Wisconsin is really far from California! How much is the tractor for sale?
Click to expand...

I don't know, I never asked because it wouldn't fit in my shed. It came from a vegetable farm and they were VERY good about upkeep.
 
(quoted from post at 03:08:44 04/22/13) I think the only specs you're going to find on the track chain is going to amount to comparing it to the dimensions of a new chain. Contact a dealer that sells ITM or Berco (there's 100s of them) and tell them what you have. The pitch used on a T-9 is pretty common. Any guy wanting your business will be glad to provide you with the specs you need to help you make a decision. A less scientific way (without calipers) to get a good idea of the condition of the chain is to look and see how much of the adjustment screw is showing. If there is a lot, and the wishbone is near the end of the track frame, the chain is stretched pretty good, but not unsalvageable. Feel the bushings, where the sprocket rides. If there is a notch formed by the sprocket tooth on the bottom half of the bushing, and it feels round on top, then the bushings have never been turned and can be turned, to get some of your adjustment back. However, if you feel a couple of weird angles on the top of the bushing, this means the bushings are on their 1st and possibly 2nd turn. At this point the chains are finished and you should get a price on new chains. To turn the bushings, the tracks are removed from the machine and taken to a track press. The links are pressed apart and the bushings repositioned. The cost of this service is about $750/side. To shorten the tracks even more, there is a company called Pigeon Products that makes weld-in sprocket cups. These are usually installed while the tracks are away at the press. These cost about $100/side. These cups are actually ordered before the tracks are removed, because if the sprocket isn't worn down enough, they won't fit. They will send you six cups for free to make the test. Regarding the cylinders, custom packing kits are easier to find today than in years past. Since this is not a high-speed nor high-pressure system, I doubt there is anything wrong that would require machining. I would bet that in cold weather it wouldn't melt the snow off the cylinders. The drifting problem you describe could also be caused by a loose piston retainer nut. As the cylinders are plumbed parallel, one defective cylinder will affect them both. A good price? Well, that's something you're going to have to decide for yourself. He's probably got some "throw-away" engineered into the price, I.E., he'll take $3500, which isn't too bad. I've found that the thing that brings people around to your way of thinking the easiest, is to have the $100s fanned out while you're making the deal. And I just remembered that the plugs I told you about, in the rear of the bevel gear housing, are actually for greasing the pilot bearing in the steering clutch, but you can still see the bands.
Click to expand...

Fritz you have been a godsend. Thank you so much for all the good info.

One more question if I could ask so much. I forgot to mention earlier that someone has taken to adding welding bead in multiple layers around the front idler, I assume in order to build up material that had worn away during use.

I have seen this exact thing done on one other machine so I am wondering if this is something that was commonly done?

Is it okay to expect to rely on such a fix going forward?

I have done the same on many worn parts myself, but I have always put them on a lathe afterwards to turn down the weld to the original dimensions of the section of the part I was fixing. That's probably hard to do on such large idler though I suppose.

What do you think of that fix? Is it an okay fix, or sign of major trouble or possible abuse and or greater wear than maybe first apparent?
 
Rebuilding the front idlers with weld material is very common. I have gotten rebuilt idlers from Caterpillar that way. No further preparation is necessary after welding. The chain links will hammer it flat after a few hours. A rough surface is actually desirable, because as the high spots are hammered down the weld material will "work harden" until maximum contact is achieved between the link and the idler.
 
(quoted from post at 02:59:13 04/23/13) Rebuilding the front idlers with weld material is very common. I have gotten rebuilt idlers from Caterpillar that way. No further preparation is necessary after welding. The chain links will hammer it flat after a few hours. A rough surface is actually desirable, because as the high spots are hammered down the weld material will "work harden" until maximum contact is achieved between the link and the idler.
Click to expand...

Okay glad to hear that it's not a bad thing. Work hardening seams pretty inventive and very resourceful.

Thanks again.

Leo
 
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