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Well it finally happened. ........F20 vs. my face

A

Andrew Psencik

Member
I knew it would happen sometime. I got a little careless while
cranking the old f20 and after a lot of frustration, timing tweaks
and lack of respect for the hand crank, I'm missing a tooth.
(Engine backfired and the crank went sailing)After I found the
rest of my teeth in the grass, got her running like a champ. I
just remember to retard the timing a little more now and that
gd crank is wired onto the shaft. Now the wife says I look like a
hillbilly, and I love making her squirm at the sight of me
missing a front tooth. Since its Sunday, I'll make a dentist apt
for tomorrow, but until then ill continue to find sick humor in
making my wife miserable.
 
im either lucky or dumb because i start all mine on full advance with just a touch of throttle. I also grab the hand crank with my thumb around it and spin it like im the boss. i figure these engines work of a solid principal of inertia and if the flywheel is spinning fast enough theres no way it can kick back off TDC.


got close to 30 hand start tractors and have started them this way for YEARS. Dad grew up with them and he said thats how they always started them



Ive been missing a front tooth in the past, but it wasnt from a tractor.........lol!
 
Your right Old-f20. I am the same way. It's how they are timed. If they are done right, you'll never have a problem. Now those old FORD Model T's and A's, that's another story...I have never been bit by a Mag tractor; but then again I do all the timing myself so that I know I am good.
 
One of classmates in school had a model T Ford and my coach chewed me out for cranking that car.
He didn't know we had a 10-20 for years and I hand cranked it. It never kicked. Hal
 
My wife and I grew up nearby when we kids and when she was about 14 her 2 front teeth became absessed and this was back in the 1940's and they pulled them. She wore a partial for years until we went to a young dentist and told her he could install a permanent bridge since her other teeth were perfect. So she had it done. She will be 82 tomorrow. We'll be married 60 years
later this year. I was in the Army then. Hal
 
I won't comment on your luck, or smarts. I will say that I know 5 people with past injuries (some still affecting them) from improper retarding of cranked engines. Jim
 
I have an F20, Grandpa taught me to double check it is in neutral, retard the timing(I reduce it by half), never hook your thumb over the crank, and finally try to start it on the up swing. Don't have the crank pinned, most people probably don't. One time the compression got the better of me, I was rocking it down to get it in motion for the upswing, and the compression gave resistance and kind of bounced it in reverse direction, everyone knows this feeling, so my knee jerk reaction was to push hard and fast and it started on the down stroke and the crank flew wildly off the tractor and came around like a clock hand to 12:00 and hit me on the forehead. I saw stars, blood pouring down my face, had to sit down for a moment. That taught me to not rush.

After that I have laughed and shyed away when people ask me to try and start the Farmall M with the crank just for fun. I tell them, no way in heck!

Anyone ever hand crank an M? I would not attempt that unless I put about 5 lbs of butter on that decoupler throw off shaft that disengages the crank handle, ha ha.
 
That is why my dad put an electric starter on his F20 back in the early 40s. He was afraid someone would get an arm broke or worse. I am glad he did as I still have it and it is easy to start. Al
a107439.jpg
 
This subject of hand cranking has been discussed here several times. I notice that those who profess to be professional hand-crankers say "if" a lot. "If" you retard it enuf, "if" you put your thumbs just so, "if" you do this, "if" you do that then you don"t get hurt.

I have 2 cranks for my H Farmall; they will stay on the shop windowsill. If anyone wants one they can have it free....won"t sell it because after the accident their lawyer will figure out how to make me pay dearly for that.

Edison invented electricity, we are supposed to be smart enuf to use it.

And...it"s hard to look macho when you are prone in a dentist"s chair or flat out in an emergency room.

LA in WI
 
Andrew,
I apologize to you if you feel offended by my remarks. They were not directed at you personally.
This subject comes up a lot and always ends up with people mentioning their injuries.
But...maybe pulling that F20 would be safer??
Hope your dental bill is not too expensive nor the work too painful.
LA in WI
 
Sorry - but I HAVE to ask why on earth you'd do that?

Sure you CAN crank an engine hard and hope to avoid kick back - but why not simply time it and tune it properly instead???

All I have to do is lightly lift on the crank a quarter turn and they'll fire right up, and fire right up safely.

Sure, it might take a few extra tries if it's real cold or hasn't run in a while, but - that's hardly a problem.

That's WHY they have a separate starting advance setting in the mag. To make starting easier and safer.

Of course, my hand crank experience is all with magneto engines, so I guess distributors are a different animal, I can't say.

But if you're talking a magneto engine, I see absolutely no advantage to your method, and PLENTY of added risk and effort.

It's not like you're getting any performance gain as the engine will quickly go to its proper run advance once it starts.

Not judging - just curious. Perhaps I'm missing something?

If it works for you, have at it - but for others with less experience reading this - I'd say that's a dangerous game to play, for no benefit that I can think of.

To those who haven't felt a full kickback - picture trying to stop a baseball bat swung at full force. Then consider that even the pros swing with only a fraction of the power of a small tractor engine.

That crank is going where it wants to go - and fast - whether you're in the way or not. And if you're in the way, you better pray the next cylinder doesn't fire.
 
yes, i agree. that is the whole purpose of the impuse coupling in the mag , so you dont have to spin it. when a mag is in good condition it takes just a lift of the crank. once i have my w12 running and then on the next start just have to pull on the crank ever so slow and as soon as the mag trips its running. i wanted to see how slow the crank can be moved for it to start and its basically from a dead stop she will fire up when the impuse trips.
the wd40 starts quite easy also but you know you have a bull by the horns lifting the crank on that monster. usually takes 2-3 pulls the first time.
but yes the timing is the most important factor.
 
I can hear my Dad now.. "Some folks just have to learn the hard way!!"
I had one "Catch" on the bottom stroke while " windmilling"....... I got the crank off the shaft just in time......just in time to hit myself right in the fore head that is.......about knocked me out. Either listen to some sound experienced advice, or get up to date on your insurance.
It's not a question of if....it's when!!! Live & learn.
 
Sorry "it had to happen". Your injury could have been worse. My cranking experience is always lift up on the crank. I never push down or spin a hand crank engine. With JD flywheels it is a little different, but with my L Case, F 30 Farmall, and my C Case always lift with the left hand. If it coughs it just pulls out of my hand. My 2 cents....
 
I was using correct procedure. It kicked back and flew off the shaft when i let go and up into my face. I am aware of how to start correctly, but I advanced the timing in the mag too much. Not with the lever, but with the bolts in the mag.
 
I guess that is why Case attached their cranks where they couldnt come out. You Just have to push them in to crank them, But they are always where you need them and they leave your teeth alone.
 
Glad you weren't seriously hurt. It only takes a second for an accident to happen. Last fall I was trying to get dad's F-20 started to run some fuel stabilizer through it. His seems to have a lot more compression than mine does so I use more caution when trying to start it. It fired and threw the hand crank out the shop door. Thankfully, my head wasn't in the way. Be careful.
 
I hand crank my F-20 cause thats the only starte it got. Pull the spark lever down just a tad, and it never kicked yet. But I'll never forget the the time dad hand cranked his 40 jd, that crank went around him like a frisby, never hit him though, but he said $%*& that, went and bought a new battery.
 
Sorry about the incident. Sometimes you can do everyting right and it'll get'cha. I've only had an engine kick once. It was a little kick and nothing was hurt but I've never forgotten it.

Quite awhile ago at our local threshing show an older gent asked me to put a rebuilt mag back on his Oliver 80. I found TDC on the tractor and #1 on the mag and put it on. When he grabbed the crank I told him to be careful in case it's not timed right. He put the crank in at the top of the stroke, put his foot against the front wheel and pulled with both hands, he wasn't a very big man. I was waiting for the crank to launch him into the next county, but the old girl started on the first pull. Whew! Jim
 
First, glad to hear you were not too seriously injured. Hand starting can be dangerous, but I agree with J R Sutton that it does not have to be. We have always crank started all our Farmall tractors, which are Farmall H and M and formerly an F12. The H and M have never been a problem because the spark is set at top dead centre and the motors never kick back. I also drive an old Riley and the starter motor sometimes won't work. It has an advance/retard lever on the dash and I use it for hand starting. If it is ignored the Riley motor WILL BITE! It kicked back once a few years ago when I was in a hurry and didn't pull the lever out far enough; the crank smacked me across the back of the hand - no breaks, but it hurt.

My Dad always taught me:
1. Do NOT wrap your thumb around the crank handle
2. Use quick up strokes to crank the motor where possible, so that the crank won't hit you in the face if the motor kicks back.
3. Use the advance / retard mechanism where fitted.
4. Keep the ignition timing, spark plugs and points gap set correctly.

Of course, electric start is a great convenience. I have fitted it to the H and it is a wonderful device when the motor is being tricky to start.

Take care and good luck with it.

SadFarmall
 
Speaking of dentist and cranking, my granddad was a dentist from 1917 till 1967. Across the hall from his office was the town's doctor. Sometimes when the doctor had a patient with a broken arm, often from a kickback, he'd call in my grandpa to help. Grandpa said he would sit down and put his foot under the patient's arm pit and pull on the patient's arm as hard as he could pull while the doctor felt and squeezed to put the bones back in place. The patient was awake the whole time. Gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it. Jim
 
Sir,
Your email is not open. I also have a person from Connecticutt wanting a crank. I will keep one for now as it came with the tractor. But I will NEVER use it!!

Maybe I"ll have my wife flip a coin and see which one of you gets a crank.
LA in WI
 
Have to agree with you! Best place for a crank is hanging on the wall! My F 30 with the Buda diesel and my F30 4WD with the 4-71 detroit diesel both have electric starters and will remain that way! If you ever had to hand-crank a cub engine on a 64 IH combine or a v-wisc. engine on a baler after it died on a hot day you too would leave the cranks hang on the walls and figure a way to retro-fit electric starters! Armand
 
Have to agree with LA Pulling definatly safer! Also have seen F model tractors retro-fitted with starters hooked to the belt pulleys. Where there is a will there is a way. Armand
 
>>>I don't understand #1. if it kicks back it will be against the 4 fingers not against your thumb. <<<

If you crank on the upswing with an open hand under the crank with your thumb tucked back the crank can pull through your hand with less chance of breaking your hand or your arm.

Stumpy
 
Those who crank incorrectly do so in every possible way. This includes full circle cranking which puts ones palm and thumb in direct conflict with the kick back forces.
Even if the cranking stroke is stopped at the 12:00 position, a left handed person with their left hand on the crank (and thumb hooked over the top to the right) can be injured. When pushing down on the right side of the "full circle" wrong method, ones face is clearly in the path of the retrograde crank handle.
A neighbor of mine had a broken jaw, and a broken arm and thumb from starting an F20 with the picker snout on it and a crank extension allowing the swing to be radical. Jim
 
exactly.

I made the baseball bat analogy earlier - maybe a sledge hammer is a better way to describe it.

Picture somebody hitting the crank with an all out swing of a 16 pound sledge hammer, in the opposite direction of your cranking.

Think about where you want your hand on the crank when that hammer hits.

It's really that forceful and instantaneous.

Best possible position is crank in short pulls from about the 7:00 to 10:00 positions.

I'd say the thumb position is LESS important if you're doing it that way (which IS the right way).

I think the thumb rule is more for those who insist on cranking further. if you go past 11:00 - the degree to which your thumb is going to be forced backwards into your hand depends on just how far past you go.

Once you come around to 3:00 or so - you're taking the full brunt of the hit into your extended arm and possibly body. that's where bones really start breaking.

Even if your lucky enough to have your hand come off without a hit - the crank can still be launched in the very wrong direction at that point. MUCH better to have it thrown down and away from you - which again - means 7:00 to 10:00 position.

This assumes you're standing forward and a little left of the crank (left, looking at the tractor), cranking with your right hand.

Don't mean to drone on about this topic - but it's so important to anybody who hasn't done it before. You don't have to fear it - but you do have to respect it.

Time the engine to fire slightly AFTER tdc (the click of the magneto - not running). There's absolutely no benefit to trying to hit tdc EXACTLY.

If you ever expect to hand crank even once - always err on the side of AFTER. you should have absolutely no doubt about it. If you're within 5 degrees after, it'll still start easily if everything else is tuned properly, so you've got a fair amount of wiggle room.

I know I'm preaching to the choir for the most part here. But I know when I first started looking for this info myself - I got a LOT of conflicting opinions. After a few kickbacks, I quickly weeded through which opinions were the best.
 
Boy do I know how that feels, I have a 1938 Allis Chalmers B that you have to crank to start.I have felt the wrong side of my thumb on the back of my hand. Geese does that hurt, Kenny.
 
(quoted from post at 16:18:48 03/18/13) I was using correct procedure. It kicked back and flew off the shaft when i let go and up into my face. I am aware of how to start correctly, but I advanced the timing in the mag too much. Not with the lever, but with the bolts in the mag.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean any offense, just that it happened to me also. I am glad you weren't more seriously hurt. Serious enough I am sure.
I had gotten myself a bit upset after I had flooded it, ( Temper temper) and just decided it was going to start or ELSE !!
It took me a few hours to get the stars out of my eyes, I kept hearing my dad &amp; uncles " Only a quarter of a turn...it will bite you...I'm only going to warn you ONCE !!! "
Well I learned my lesson the hard way, and, of course....after clobbering myself in the front of the skull with the crank still in my hand....you never heard a tractor purr any better. Live &amp; learn.
 
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