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M still not running

O

Oldiron29

Well-known Member
To all that tried to give me advice last night the M is still not running. I begain today with removing valve cover and making sure I had TDC right by watching rocker and valves. TDC is correct. Pulled all plugs cranked with hand crank and I get spark on all just after compression so that is correct. Pull M with my Regular around the barn yard about a dozen times.
Did get some smoke after chocking. trottle closed and open but no good pops. So I am thinking it is starving for fuel. I removed carb and went through clean again all looks good opened main jet about 4 turns past original setting of 2 1/2 out. Did get 1 good pop with my hand over carb but than seems to flood. I am looking for something to blame Poor spark? could it be I got bad plug new out of the box? Champian D-21. Is 125-135 bad compression not pulling the gas up? Oh and When I had the carb off I run a wire up in the new manifold but no blockage found. What would you guys try next? This one is wheren me out. oldiron29
 

If your checking each plug for spark, and you're 100% sure on the timing hitting at the top of the compression stroke...

That leaves valves, compression, and carb as likely suspects.

Compression check will tell you if your valves, head gasket, and rings are sealing well enough to fire.

I'd keep an eye on the valves as you're testing just to be 100% sure they're all moving properly and not doing anything crazy.

Assuming the results are ok -

Then you're down to the carb.

Rule out flooding - shut the gas off to the carb completely.

Pull the plugs one more time and make sure they're clean and dry, put them back in.

Keep cranking it for a while - stop a minute - try for a little more - stop - try again. Do that over 10 minutes or so.

It'll either start for a bit at some point, or do nothing but run your carb fairly dry.

If it DOES try to start at all - you know you've been getting too much gas through the carb and can go from there.

If it doesn't make any difference at all, once you're sure the carb is emptied out enough, try some starter fluid.

If you can just get it to fire even for a couple of revs that way, you can be pretty sure it's a carb problem - possibly flooding, or even not getting enough gas through the carb.

At that point, you can start diagnosing the carburetor, but cross that bridge later.
 
Oldiron,

Advance the timing to where the mag trips just before TDC, (should be about 4 degrees before TDC). Start with the carb screws at 1&1/4 turns out. Try a strong shot of starting fluid. If the engine hits but soon stops, fuel and the carb is the problem. Float level may not be set correctly or binding.
 
I may be way off the mark, but Ihad similar problems with my H. I finally found the float was very slightly rubbing aginast the side of the carb chamber. Just slightly, enough to flood. Had to try it several times, to delicately refigure it to one side.
I also found that my points were set way WAY too far open. I thought I had them exactly right, but I had them maybe 0.045 or more. My brother set them correctlat 0.020 (as I remember), and she fired immediately. And has ever since.
 
George, My carb seem ok I have good amount of gas in bowl and needle valve is working so no float problem. I have a mag so my breaker point is set at .o13 oldiron29
 
JR, If you coud go back to last nights post to get some of the symptons I have gone through.
oldiron29
 
Laugh if you want , but is the exhaust plugged ? It can't draw it in if it can't get rid of it . Has happened at least a couple times , honest .
 
sure cant be four plugs n. g. all at once. was the carb soaked in carb cleaner and passages blown out with air. sure seems like its not getting fuel, as the main passage is blocked. while pulling it have someone spray gas into the carb with a spray bottle.if things are all correct she will fire up.
 
If the wires are copper, or wire wound suppressor type you are good on those. If carbon, I suspect they might be an issue. Mags do not like them, and can drive voltages through the rotor or cap to ground. 1342 clockwise from 2:30 to 10:30 Jim
 
That's a real good thought. Also she might be leaking around the manifold. Hold you hand over the muffler and the air intake while cranking. This might tell you something.
 

Sorry - missed that you had already checked compression.

I figured that'd test out ok anyways - I still say run the carb dry.

If it's flooded, it'll most like fire at some point while you slowly empty the carby by cranking.

If not - the starting fluid should get it to fire while the carbs empty.

If it does either, you know to focus more on the carb.
 
I have squeezed gas in plug holes and today when carb was off sprayed gas and starter fluid on manifold and nothing. Like plugs were fold?
oldiron29
 
Kind of grasping at straws, but are you using fresh gas or are you trying start it on the water that condensed in the gas tank ?

Maybe try creanking it a few turns with the ignition off, the choke closed. Pull a plug hold a lit propane torch by the hole, and crank it to see if you have fuel in the cylinder.

It might be time to put it out by the road with a 'FREE' sign on it... ;^)


Greg
 
My C did the same.I put my H4 on where it should but didn"t know i had to snap it back,maybe this helps.
 
Well, that sounds strange.....just thinking, could the cam be 180 out or something strange like that? If 180, 4 would be number 1 and so on. Compression would still be good since the cylinder doesn't care where spark occurs, just did the intake valve open on a down stroke and close on the up. Is the intake valve on number 1 opening at/after TDC and closing at/after BDC and then is the spark occuring at the right time to fire it?

Sounds like a tough one...donno.....
 
heat, I watched the rocker and valves this morning through many revolutions compression stroke can after intake. I don't think there is problems with that. The lower half was not touched only heat removed. Old paint over engine has no signs of anyone taking it apart for some time. Even mag and such have same paint. This tractor run before head was removed. I am thinking some thing simple and stupied. Mabe even bad plugs. oldiron29
 
Greg, Tank was empty new fresh gas. I have pulled in tractor others would not touch! people called it scrape. I have gotten them rolling and running This is what I do save oldiron have not had one beat me yet! I will keep at it till it is running. oldiron29
 
Do you have #1 plug wire in the correct spot on the mag cap - #1 position on a mag is different than a distributor. # 1 on a mag is on the top left corner if you are looking from in front, not the top right as on a distributor.
 
couldnt you try another set of plugs in it/ lots of times when they get carboned up from flooding they will not fire. try another carb?
 
Well I'm grasping at straws here too,and you have probably checked this already, but does the spark you see make a good long snapping arc out the end of the plug wires? And not just a tiny little flicker that you can hardly see. Jim
 
You are sure the rotor is lined up with the tower when it fires. The rotor should line up right past the cap on the coil for #1 when it trips. A tooth off either way will make for starting problems
 
Hold your hand over the throat of the carburetor
while a helper attempts to start the engine. If there's very little suction you have low intake manifold vacuum. Could be a leak around the manifold. You need good suction to draw that fuel into the engine. When you're at TDC on the compression stroke your rotor should be pointing to your No1 plug wire which is about 2 o'clock. Your plug wires should be in this firing order on the cap. Hal

2-1
4-3 The rotor turns CW.
 
Have you tried any of the magic words? In what order if you did? Sometimes the usual order doesn't do it(example if it was made in Louisville it may require some southern style). Best way is to sell it really cheap and let the new owner tell you it was just something simple, like the condenser went bad and cost $1.00 to fix. Sounds like you know what you are doing more than me, good luck and let us know.
 
NO, I have a mag and the rest distributers. Both are:
21
43
Both are in the top left corner from the front.
 
Hal, I have good suction with my hand over carb
There is a point you have brought up That I have looked at and gone through. Here me out if you move the small gear under the rotor you can make any post #1 All that matter is that the #1 plug is fireing when #1 cylinder is at TDC And yes follow through with 1342. I have seen some farmall that the #1 post was where #4 is. oldiron29
 
Ok if I am reading your post correctly. Your M is equipped with a mag. I assume it is an H-4 mag. Have you checked that your plug wires are correcly installed. Do not assume that the No. 1 cylinder and wire are correct. If theses mags have ever been removed the timing of the gears may have altered which distributor cap post is no. 1. Also check for carbon tracking on the distributor cap. Your cap or bad wires could allow cross firing where the spark would travel to the plug with the least amount of compression. Your testing would show every thing is good yet when you connect the wires they are crossing due to the higher resistance.

good luck
 
Gene, Would this cause poor spark? I have spark at TDC but mabe small gear under rotor is off a little, But on enough to give spark but not good enough to light up the fuel. This is good mabe a lead into my problem. I will check this out in the morning. oldiron29
 
rustred
Advance the timing to where the mag trips just before TDC, (should be about 4 degrees before TDC).

old iron29
I have checked timing #1 spark JUST AFTER after compression TDC.

rustred's suggestion will at least move the mag into the band

35 deg btdc-full retard

and

t.d.c.-full advance

Good Luck

Alont
 
Alont, I have moved mag too and away no difference. Thinking more of spark or fuel problem. oldiron29
 
Timming gearsin case, cam and crank have not been touched!!! But I can not say for sure if the Mag Is stricking the cap at the right time. Would this cause poor spark to plug? Does the H4 have same bevel off gears to set it like an F4?
If this is off I may have found something. I didn't open this when I changed the coil or set the points. oldiron29
 
Well, just for grins, why not try timing it 180 degrees off and see if it runs. Who know who was in there 40 years ago and messed something up ?

You must be as stubborn ( he claimed it was determined) as my uncle Ernie.

Greg
 
Have you tried turning the gas off yet?

Sorry to keep pressing the point, but I've re-read a few times and see no mention of you trying it.

(although with my A.D.D I often miss details people type, sorry if that's true here)

Just shut the gas off and keep it off. Keep cranking on and off for a good 5 minutes. While the gas gets used up, you'll eventually pass a point where the mixture is just right and it should at least fire a few times.

If nothing - drain what's left in the bowl - pull and clean the plugs.

Try starting it with everything dry using starter fluid only - no gas.

(I think you said you did this without the carb in place, but that might be a little too wide open -- and definitely use starter fluid, or carb cleaner if you don't have the fluid. Spraying gas alone probably isn't enough)

If it goes with the starting fluid, you can be fairly certain it's a carb issue.

If not it's probably a timing/spark issue.

If, like you said, you're getting a 1/4" blue spark, that's good, so most likely a timing issue.

A timing light should show any problems, even while just cranking the engine.

If you don't have a tdc mark on the crank pulley, just put one there yourself.
 
As no one has yet come up with the answer I was going through the list of what has been changed,checked,

Seems as though oldiron29 is on:-

same set of plugs--but new set Monday

same gas???

Alont
 
No4 piston was at TDC on the compression stroke
when that happens. When you're assembing an engine to get the crankshaft and timing gear marks aligned on these 4 cylinder engines you need rotate the engine one complete revolution before installing the mag. If you're using a mag you need to make sure those gears are set with the letter R since your rotor rotates CW. Hal
 
Have you tried just a small shot of starting fluid in the carb? That would eliminate a lot of searching. If it pops from the starting fluid it is a fuel problem. If not, it is something else. Just a SMALL shot will do.
 
OldIron,Im not any way partial to types of plugs,But it seems to me once Champions get wet or fowled there harder to fire.Im working on a 15-30 now that has fowled plugs in it and I just just ordered Autolites,Ive never had a plug problem with my old Farmalls with fowling plugs,and I only start then monthly or less.Also turn your gas off and try to start it

jimmy
 
and I get spark on all JUST AFTER COMPRESSION so that is correct.

I thought it should occur before, or AT T.D.C.

Maybe I"m wrong but I have never timed ignition AFTER T.D.C.

Alont
 
Again - I'd say a timing light is your best bet at this point.

That would take all the guesswork completely out of the equation.
 
Hi again

does that new gas you bought run in any other engine/small engine?

Just another thought


Alont
 
Hi again

have you tried the new gas in another engine/small engine-just to see if it actually runs ?

Alont
 
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