Detergent oil in a cruddy engine

I've always heard that using detergent oil in a dirty engine that had previously not used detergent oil would cause serious problems.

I suspect most of the accumulated gunk that could break loose is inside the crankcase itself, in which case it would have to get though the pickup tube screen before it could go anywhere and cause damage. I'd think it unlikely that such small particles would end up blocking anything. Most likely, they'd end up in the bottom of the pan if they had any mass at all.
I would however, take the pan off after a few oil changes and scrape out any buildup in the bottom and anything you can see/reach in the block and you should be good to go.
In 26 yrs of working on old tractors, I've never heard of an actual case where detergent oil breaking loose old deposits ever caused engine damage/failure. I HAVE seen where chunks of silicone were stuck in the pickup tube screen, but even then, not to the extent it shut off or probably even notably reduced the oil flow.
Does anyone else have DIRECT observations of problems associated to using detergent oil in a cruddy engine? (Not anecdotal, not "heard from a buddy", but actually SAW with your own eyes.)

Got a super M I am rebuilding right now. Old farmer thought the same way you are. Always had straight oil no detergent.Only had detergent oil no big deal screen will catch the big stuff. Whats after that screen? Really fine thing they call an oil filter plugged it up no more oil!!! Tractor was on the silage blower running wide open what a mess !!! Just what I've seen.

I know of no oil that contains that much detergent. Yes it may eventually disolve some deposits over time but oil color would tell you if that happens. So, was he not checking the oil, or was there another cause?

In 20 years of working on and resurrecting old car and truck and now tractor engines here is what I have found: Somebody parks an old whatever and it sits for a decade or two. The crud is already there and dries out somewhat and moisture gets in there and then you have freeze/thaw cycles that over time loosen stuff up. Now we get it and tinker with it and get it running and everything warms up and next thing crud is sliding out from everywhere and the oil gets blamed. Really it wouldn't have mattered what oil you put in there.

If the people who blame the oil for loosening up the crud would just stop and think about what they are saying. I mean if that detergent really was that powerful of a contact cleaning agent then we wouldn't have to waste money on varsol or mineral spirits and instead we could clean parts with motor oil! No engine made since detergent oil would have a chance at getting sludged up yet we still find sludged up engines in cars less than 10 years old because people don't change the oil.

That said, I did have one plug a filter after a short time. Back in the 90's when I was a lot poorer we bought a used 350 out of a wrecked camaro to put in one of my camaros. This poor thing has lived in town all it's life and was really dirty inside. I mean crud wrapped around the pushrods and everything. We cleaned up under the valve covers while replacing gaskets and after replacing oil and filter got it in and running. I drove it a half mile down the road for a test, turned around and on the way back watched the oil pressure steadily dropping toward zero! It had completely plugged the oil filter in about 10 minutes of run time! IIRC we dropped the oil pan and cleaned out crud there and cleaned the oil pickup screen. I never blamed the oil, the problem was that it was just really dirty inside. After that it was ok. I used it for a year or two and after it was pulled out and torn down it was still really dirty inside!

Whenever I have brought a tractor home that's a runner, I always drop the pan as part of an overall PM strategy, regardless of what the tractor looks like, before I make it do any work.

AMEN CenTex !!!

Ms have a bypass filter! Jim

Well, the majority will probably disagree with me, but here is what I have done with all my "new" old tractors. This is "real life", been there, done that.

When I first get them home, I run them up to working temp and observe the oil pressure (of course, after I get them running!) Then I immediately drain the oil and change the filter. Fresh HD oil and 1 quart of Rislone. I then run 'em for a while, keeping a close watch on the oil pressure. after what might add up to 15-20 hours of "up to temp" time, I will then drain the oil again and replace the filter. There after, I do normal oil changes with filter and use HD oil. I also flush out the rad at that point as well. Gets fresh antifreeze, corrosion additive, and water.

I have NOT scattered any engines. I have NOT plugged any oil filters. and I DO end up with a fairly clean oil system. About the only complaint I have is that some of the seals do start to leak a bit where previously they didn't. I accept that, and the seals needed to be replaced anyway. Only reason they weren't leaking is because of old sludge. Doesn't always produce leaking seals, but if they were borderline, they leak after the Rislone enema.

Like I said, I am probably in the minority here, but this has been my experience. I guess with a tractor of unknown maintanence or history, I wouldn't necessarily change to HD oil and then go run the snot out of it. Although, if you watch your oil guage, you can determine if you are running into a problem or not regardless of how hard you are working it.

as always, IMHO.

With the bypass oil filter system a M uses, you could plug it and the oil pressure to oil gallery will be unchanged. IH didn't start using a full flow filter until the 560's etc and even then they have a bypass for cold oil or plugged filters.

I still have that 350. It cleaned up at 30 and made a nice 383 to go in the suburban! Drove it about a year and a half the transmission broke while about 3 hours from the house on a trip. Made it home with 1st and 2nd. Wife decided she would rather have a newer car so now I've been storing it for about 2 years. Not sure where I'm going with this story but that's how it is.

i've seen a detergent oil make a non leaker leak, but otherwise causeno PROBLEMS.. other thandrips inthe barn.

i too would use detergent oil in an old machine.. maybee do a couple fitler changes and il changes in short order.. etc.

i dump in a quart ofatf into any new to me machinebefore drainingthe oil.. i WANT to break that old stuff loose and get rid of it.

soundguy

(quoted from post at 14:40:03 11/22/11) Got a super M I am rebuilding right now. Old farmer thought the same way you are. Always had straight oil no detergent.Only had detergent oil no big deal screen will catch the big stuff. Whats after that screen? Really fine thing they call an oil filter plugged it up no more oil!!! Tractor was on the silage blower running wide open what a mess !!! Just what I've seen.

Click to expand...

There is a bypass on that oil filter that is designed to allow oil flow to the engine in case the filter gets plugged.

Yes, I've seen it happen. Not proved by a controlled scientific study, but close enough. At our Deere dealership 30-40 years ago it was a big issue. We sold Deere tractors but worked on all makes of tractors. In our shop we carried three types of oil. Quaker State HDX (medium detergent), Quaker State non degergent, and Deere Torque-Guard Supreme which is extremely high degergent.

Our shop policy was to never use the Deere oil in any tractor that had not had it since new. If we could not verify, we'd use some version of the Quaker State.

We had a few "mis-haps" when a tractor got fixed and then someone dumped the Deere oil into it. We had a few that ran perfect before, and then started using oil shortly after the change. We'd drain and find the new oil looking like mud. On a few, we actually found the oil-pump pickups plugged with freshly loosened debris. On one Allis Chalmers we had to put in new main and rod bearings after such a mishap. When we pulled the pan we could see that the engine had never been maintained. Did not seem fair that we were now responsible. But, it DID run fine until some idiot dumped the Deere oil into it and then stuck it on the dyno for four hours.

It's not so common anymore to find 2" thick sludge inside an engine. That being said, I just yanked apart a TO-35 that IS that bad (Continental Z-134).

When unsure - do an oil change with HD oil and keep an eye on the dipstick. If the oil turns to mud - you've got problems. If it just gets dark faster then normal, change more often. If the engine is known to be badly sludged inside? Why the heck would anybody risk using a HD oil? Nothing to gain and plenty to lose.

By the way, a friend of mine had a Deere dealership at his farm for many years. Closed late 50s. He kept three "left-overs" and was very careful about oil changes. He always used non-degergent. A 420, 530, and a 620. Last year I pulled the oil pan off his 420. Note the pan had never been off since that tractor was new. It was absolutely clean inside. I guess that shows that tractors that get used right, and maintained can stay clean even with non-D oil.

I also had a logger customer that bought a new Chevy LUV diesel truck when they first came out. Last I saw him he had 120,000 miles on it and had never done an oil change. Just kept topping it off when low. I wonder what that thing looked like inside? Note it still ran perfect.

I run detergent in all my tractors, but pull the pan and covers when I get one to manually clean the sludge out. I have seen up to an inch of sludge.

No issues with it after that.

Still has to flow thru. But what ever. Found out from his kid he had but motor flush in it to clean it out before changing to detergent oil. Explains alot !!

If you plug the pickup screen with sludge you of course are in trouble. My point is that on a M farmall tractor you have a bypass oil filter. It receives oil from the same passage that is feeding the main bearings. No oil going through the oil filter goes to the bearings as it is dumped back into the oil pan and then is pumped again through system with the rest of the oil. So, if the filter is plugged you still have oil in gallery feeding the bearings. If the sludge is sufficient to plug the oil gallerys that is a different situation. If the sludge is gritty crud, you are feeding it to all the bearings regardless if filter is plugged or not. A full flow filter receives the oil from the oil pump and from there it goes into oil gallery so if the filter is doing it's job on those systems you will get the crud out. When filter plugs, the back pressure will open the bypass in the filter or filter base and still oil will flow to oil gallerys but it will be unfiltered.

I never use any of the "trick" stuff to clean the inside of the engine. Instead, I always substitute one quart of ATF for one quart of oil at each change. Keeps the inside of the engine clean enough to eat off of. I have also used it to clean out engines with more sludge in them then oil, but only after pulling all pans, covers etc. and scrapping everything off I could reach by hand. Then I add fresh oil, filter and the ATF. Check the oil condition DAILY until it looks like the stuff running in the sewer, then change it again and repeat. Eventually, it comes out clean and there have been no other issues. I guess doing it this way might cause leaks, but since the first thing I did was R/R all covers, I replaced the gaskets with new ones at that time and it has not been an issue for me.