M/Super M live hydraulic pump questions:Compatibility ???

Hey,

I know these questions have been asked 100s of times,but I am trying to get it straight in my head.So I will make some statements and PLEASE correct me when I am wrong !!!!!

#1 A STANDARD M has to have its distributor drive modified to use an IH live hydraulic pump of of a NEWER style Super M pump,but an M&W, or other aftermarket versions will bolt right up and use the old distributor no problem???

#2 If one chooses to put a live pump(ANY maufacturer) on an OLDER M,there is a GOOD chance it might break the cam gear off due to it being made LESS durable than the later gears???

#3 In order to use LATER style IH Super M live pump on EARLIER M,you would have to EVEN change cam gear covers and where the distributor bolts on????(BESIDES the cam gear and adding the pump drive)????

#4 LATE built STANDARD Ms would be better candidates to put a live pump on because the cam gear was already the HEAVIER version,and the cam covers were already set up to take a IH live pump ????

The reason I am asking these questions is because I keep hearing "bits and pieces" on different occasions on what it takes to install a live pump and I dont think I am getting the FULL story??

Thanks, Mike

#1. No. The distributor drive does NOT get modified for an IH pump. The distributor drive is removed from the tractor, and the pump installed in its place.

#2. IMHO, the M&W and other aftermarket pumps do not have the output capacity to put significant stress on the timing gears. An IH pump has a much higher output and when a heavy load is placed on it, it can break cam gears.

#3. The front engine mounting plate needs to be changed to the updated Super M style to PROPERLY mount the IH pump. Some people have reported successfully mounting the IH pump on the old front plate by modifying one hole in the pump.

#4. Yes. The design was changed to the later style some time in 1950.

Number one, the ignition drive housing and shaft is removed when a pump is installed. The hydraulic pump bolts in its place and the ignition bolts to the pump.
M&W pump for a M or SM gas will bolt to any year gas tractor. IH type will only have the same bolt pattern as M tractors with engine serial # 228083 or higher. Engines with that serial # or above have a front engine cover and the plate behind the front cover with a different ignition drive housing bolt pattern than earlier engines. Bolt pattern is the same as SM through 450 non diesel tractors. Another thing to check on the M front covers, If its a cover without a place for a hour meter. IH pumps with a place on the hydraulic pump shaft for a hour meter drive gear will contact the front cover on some 1/16 or so before pump gasket surface contacts the front cover plate. If I remember correct the front covers ending with a R1 Suffix #.

# 2 all the engines from M to 450 have broke the gears or had the cam gear get loose on the cam. So there's always a chance. But breakage can be more of a problem on the first design cam gear. At least 3 different gears were used, # 6760D, 6760DA, 6760DB. 6760 D has the weakest center section and was used on most or all M tractors. Can't say for sure because I haven't come across the IH information saying when the change from 6760 D to 6760 DA was made. Know when DA to DB change was made on farmall tractors and from D to DA on a W6. Anyway M parts books dated in the middle of 1952 and SM dated in the first half of 1953 show gear 6760D or the same as a M. Could be a misprint or a failure to update the gear suffix. Should have been corrected by the early 53 one though. But from studying engines here and in lots of salvage yards back when there was hundreds of carcuses in all states of being dismantled, I don't think you can depend on any M or early SM of having a gear with a suffix higher than a D. So many of the engines were rebuilt or have used parts put in over the years its had to say 100% positive what was used by looking. Have found all 3 gear numbers in M to 450 tractors. When looking to see which cam gear is in a tractor look at the suffix on the gear.
All for now, more info later.

Kind of answer I was looking for!

If you get more details,let me know.


Mike

Mike some more on the front engine cover. On some M tractors that have the same bolt pattern to mount a IH type pump originaly built by pesco and thompson, I mentioned clearance issues on some using a IH type pump with a place on the drive end shaft for a hour meter drive gear. To spot the cover and check the clearance. After the ignition drive is removed, look in the hole. If you see a screen fastened by 2 bolts, check the clearance or saw the pump shaft off for the HMD. if not needed. Later front covers had the screen moved up to under the oil fill cap. Another caution, make sure the bottom mounting bolt engine side for a pump or ignition drive is not to long. If to long it will go through and contact the cam gear. Ones that survive that happening have metal scaring of the gear and metal cuttings in the engine.
Cam gear 6760 DA was changed on the farmall tractors to 6760 DB at C264 engine # 155941 in 400 tractor. About the only difference from DA was DB machined for a tighter fit on the cam shaft. Wish I knew the exact time the change was made on a M from D cam to DA, but you want facts so I don't know. Think it was later than the bolt pattern change of front cover.
IH came out with another camshaft to help with the cam hub getting loose on the cam. Cam with left hand threads and nut were added starting C281 engine # 9861 in a farmall 450. All the latest design cams and gears became the replacement parts for the whole familiy of engines.
Most kits M&W sold for M SM tractors were set at 1000 PSI max. SM and SMTA with IH pump pressure relief around 1000 PSI. 400 and 450 ran higher relief pressures. M&W did sell one kit limited to less than 1000 PSI.
My experience so far is finding more replacement cam gears in M tractors than original ones.
Maybe this answered part of the questions.