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pulley broke, need options

S

souNdguy

Well-known Member
Got off work, had a few hours to kick around.

use a pick and screwdriver and DID discover the 1/2" coars threads in the pulley hole burried by what must have been epoxy? or some kind of hard glue?

took me 45 minutes to get all the stuff out and chase the hole clean. put a bolt in there, set up my rig with bottle jack and bearing splitter and backing plate.. tensioned it up and nada.. got it as hard as I could get it without actually rocking the tractor or using a bar on the pump handle.

decided to leave it under pressure and go soak the bolt on the fan pully adjuster.. heard a clang after a few minutes, thought it had popped off or the pulley had come off :( well it broke.

now I need options on what is the best way to procede.

apparrently it's rusted on good, or perhaps the previous owner GLUED it on and that is what i found in that hole.. epoxy or something.

what next?

try to split the hub?

sawsall?

torch? not exactly sure how to do that without damaging the crank snout ...

i'm open to ideas.. i'm sure someone else has broke one before.

also.. next stupid question.

anyone got a pulley laying around.. I think i may need one.. :)

soundguy
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I would say I told you so but not that mean LOL. Ya they are so so easy to break all you have to do is hold your mouth the wrong way. I may have one laying around if you find that Y-T is to high LOL
 
I think I was doing it the right way... if I had screwed up, i'd deserve the i told ya so.. but on this one.. i had the bolt in the snout with room for the pulley to move off it.. i had the puller square, and the bearing splitter was adjusted snug and backing up the pulley.. everything was pretty square..

then boing...

i'm not so worried about the 60$ yt pulley so much as getting the remnant of this one off... i guess it's drill and sawsall time to try to split it and not eat up my timing cover... :(

soundguy
 
Oh man, that was just bad luck. The way you did it looked fine. Sometimes they just decide to break.

Somebody else may have a better idea, but you still have some material left to put the splitter back on. Set it up with pressure like before then apply heat to the hub. Don't worry about heat damage to the seal, it all has to come off now anyway.

If that doesn't want to move it, look in the end to determine where the key is positioned. Then drill a bunch of holes down through the hub to the key. Unfortunately, you will not be able to get clear to the back of the hub with the drill. Use a sawsall to cut through the outer part of the hub towards where the holes were drilled. Then drive a chisel into the sawed groove to try to open it up.
 
I don"t know if it is feasable, or not, but I had good luck drilling a timing gear once, and the it easily split right out. At least it would remove some material so it would be easier to use the sawzall. Maybe a small enough bit to make sure not to hit the crank. But I have never done one of these, so just a thought, no experience talking.
 
If you have one a small die grinder with a cutting blade works well. You cut a couple of slits in what is left both sides then a chisel in the slit and most of the time it will break in 2 and fall on your toe. LOL As I said I may have one laying around I'll look if you want me 2. I know I have one that has part of the edge of the pulley broken out form one I did a long time ago and broke it
 
I cut a hole in a piece of 1/2" plate and them cut that in half. Then welded the halves to the broken pulley and to each other. Gave a good place for the puller to grab and the heat from weld made it come right off.

If its in fact epoxied on maybe the heat will soften that up.

My other SC has a bolt through the pully & end of the crank, by PO. No key and the end crank worn enough so as new pulley wouldnt go on tight. I put it back like I found it. No issues so far.
 
at this point i would try and cut thru as much of the hub just in front of the seal with a cut off wheel, then get the remains of the hub off. slide the timing cover off over the rest of the hub, then slice partially thru the hub and split it off the crankshaft. i would bet it was a little sloppy and it got locktite-ed on the end of the crankshaft at some point in the past.
 
that's exactly my plan.

I'm going to sawsall the remnant of the hub flush or maybee a lil proud ( for safety ) of the end of the crank.. then find that keyway.. then drill or it. that way i'm sure to stay out of the crank.

and then cut along the drill lines like you mentioned.. then attempt to split.

I have another slightly smaller profile bearing splitter on there right now, no bottle jack, but a bar and bolt s style puller and it's under enough tension that it is bending the 1/2" cross bolts in the bearing splitter.

I left it like that and went to work.. I doubt it will move any.. but what the heck.

will hit the hub with heat tomorrow afternoon, and if nada.. then get to sawsall work.

I could kick myself.. but I think I was doing everything right.. I had the back plate and the jack.. had it tight.. all was square.. center bolt must have bent a lil when it popped.. but i had the bolt burried so as much threads were in the crank as possible.

I think I was doing it right anyway.

I did find lots of some sort of hard glue or pucky or epoxy int he crank threads hole. it was gobbed up the entire front of the hole, and say.. 3/8 to 1/2 deep in the threads.

I wonder if some wanker jb welded the hub to the shaft?

oh well.. i can get another pulley. ytmag has them.

budget is almost dry.. so i don't want to damage the timing cover.. can't afford to put any more $$ into her.. and the engine comp was good and oil pressure great.. so i don't need to get into the engine.

bad luck I guess...

soundguy
 
that pulley hub has a large diameter, then a smaller diameter where it enters the crank seal.. from that smaller diameter.. how deep can i go before hitting crank?

also.. I take it I can sawsall the broken end of the ratchet off even to where I am threading int he bolt, as that is the end of the crank.. correct?

I don't mind breaking things when I goof up.. but I hate breaking things when I think I'm doing it right... :(

soundguy
 
if ya got an intact one let me know... don't want to take a chance on another broken one.. i'll give the poor fool who owns this one after me a fighting chance!
 
I don't know what you did, but there is more than one way to install the bearing separator -- it must be putting pressure on the lower part of the pulley, without touching the rim. Good bearing separators are not cheap, I think I paint $125 for mine. Mike at Steel Wheel Ranch, 785-548-7437 may have one. His prices are as reasonable as they get.
 
My vote: Cut 2 deep grooves in what is left of the face of this pully.180 degrees apart.(Cut deep,but NOT into crank snout.)A 3' cutoff wheel on a die grinder will do great.


Take either side and crack itright in one of the grooves with a big chisel and a 5 lb hammer.
 
i had the seperator where the base of the lips flat were holding on near the base of the hub, not the flange. hard to see from this angle, but it actually ripped the flange clear off the hub at the point the flange contacts the hub.. the only lip left was in one side recess where the seperator does not touch on either side.

I'm pretty certain i had the seterator doing it's best to NOT contact the pulley but at the base so as not to break it. the thru bolts int he seperator diod not deform or bend, and the seperator did not bend / was not damaged.. the hub simply gave away right where it ceases being a flange and becomes part of the face of the hub.

soundguy
 
instead of cutting the snout flush your idea is to go straight in, and perhaps use the extra metal as extra leverage with the chissle?

can't hurt to try. I can always cut it flush afterwards if it fails..
 
Were it mine I would put the splitter back on and the jack against the partially threaded in center bolt (leaving a 1/8" gap between the bolt head and the crank spiral.) Then I would heat the hub near red with a flame wrench. It will pop the hub before it gets extremely hot. The seal is toast any way. Easy and not hard on parts. By the way you did it all correctly. Putting a bit of heat and 50 Pounds less force would have done it. Jim
 
At the key way: I would use a 3 inch cut-off wheel to rough cut and then finish with a dremel with a small cut-off wheel for best control and cut thru the hub into the keyway (but not the crank) then I would go 180 degrees from the keyway and cut the hub most of the way with a dremel but stay a bit proud so as to not hit the crank. A chisel should then finish the job to create two half circles which should then easily remove. Heck you might not even need to use the chisel. The relief cuts should relieve the press fit enough that it will pop off with your puller quite easily and you could avoid having to apply heat to a crankshaft which I would prefer to avoid if possible.

Also not to hi-jack the thread: but I was always under the impression that hydraulic bottle jacks would not work laying on their side but I guess yours jack does. Since I do not have a porta power I have always used old truck manual screw jacks or manual scissor jacks for horizontal loading applications. Guess maybe I should try some of my newer hydraulic jacks to see if they will work horizontally. I do know some of my older hyrdralic jacks will not work other than vertically.
 
Well, I gotta hand it to you, I have NEVER seen a pulley fail in this manner. I agree with Jim, I wouldn't be too hard on myself if I were you. This sort of thing happens, and it's too late now to cry over spilled milk.

I also agree with Jim, put some heat to her, and use the setup again.....it will pop off. Also, I doubt it, but is there a set screw in the pully? If there is, did you remove it first? That crud in the threads in the crank is probably years of grease and dirt.
 
BTW, this (and similar failures) is why I like a thread style puller instead of the hydraulic ones. On the thread style puller, you can rap the end of the center rod to "shock" the pulley loose. Not sure if you applied heat first or not, but between heat and the gradual increase in torque as I outlined in the previous thread, AND the rap with the hammer, these ususally bust loose without incident.

I am sure that 100's of these have been removed with a hydraulic setup, but prefer the old mechanical method...........hard to beat judicious use of the acetylene speed wrench.
 
I dont think you did anything wrong either.Like you said earlier,I bet someone has "glued" this thing on !!!!(Probably was TOO LOOSE fitting at on time/last time it was replaced???)
 
as tight as this thing is.. I don't think a jaw type screw puller would have even a remote chane at removing it.

it took everything that bottle jack had and eventually had a stress yeild in the area of the hub at the flange.

I don't think a screw puller would have generated that much pressure.

soundguy
 
I have a 15 ton mechanical puller that will pull that and much more. The tinker toys they sell in autoparts stores are NOT the heavy duty ones I am refering to ......... :wink:
 
couldn't find a set screw anywhere on it, and that stuff in there was hard and semi pliable.. like liquid nails almost...

soundguy
 
i don't rebuild tractors for a living.. that kind of mechanical puller sound like it belongs in a serious shop... not something found inthe average tinker's garage.

Can't justify going out and spending a few thousand bucks on a tool I may use once on a tractor that cost 800$ unfortunately..

soundguy
 
out of a 4, 16, and 30 ton bottle jack, all of mine will work on their side, if the lil cyl is not on very top. sides or lower and it works.


soundguy
 
YEA,DONT waste that extra "leverage material" up there.

I would "SCORE" as much of the exposed area of that hub as I could.(180 deg across from each other.)

BTW,I am not totally against the "torch" ideas.(EVERYONE has had great input here!!!)I have had 2 bad incidents with heating crank hubs.Once I exploded an oil pan on my engine.Shot the front seal in my face!!!(Had a grinder shield on ,THANK GOD!!!)just a little TOO much "vapor"in the crankcase!

I wont use heat unless I absolutely have too!

My Opinion
 
I would use a torch and heat it. Use the bearing separator behind whats left of the damper pulley and put a light strain on it using your jack. The heat may free it up. Hal
 
Soundguy,You can try this to get it off the crank.Turn the crank till the keyway is at 12 o clock,then use a 7" grinder with a hard kwick flat disk on it and grind it down to the key.It shouldn't take long to grind it down to the key.Then with the heat from the grinding it should knock off tapping it with a hammer.With no damage to the crankshaft.
 
seals already shot, and HAS to come out at this point.

guess a lil blue wrench on it won't hurt at this point while the puller is still on there.. if nada, then cut and chissle I guess

still bummed about the entire deal...
 
Don't bum out too much, these things do happen. I have yet to do a project that I didn't either a.) draw blood or b.) bust something.

I think the most demoralizing thing to happen is to pinch the inner tube when putting a tire on a rim. get it all on, and yuppers, have to take it all off again.

absolute dejection......plus I don't use any new swear words, but I sure do string 'em together in new ways..................
 
Soundguy,Someone may have put locktite or presslocker on it to keep a worn pulley hub tight.But why the missing bolt?You may have to heat it a little after grinding to loosen the locktite up.
 
BTDT on the blood.

while removing a cotter pin from the many linkages I slipped with the needle nose and pinched the bajeebers out of 2 fingers producing 2 nice long/thin 2" blood blisters and shaving a lil hide off... i figure if I don't hurt myself on a garage project I'm not trying hard enough.. :)
 
the more I think about it.. the more I think some kind of glue was used, based on what I dug out of the hole.

I mean.. I've dug lots of crud and dirt of/out of lots of places on tractors. this wasn't dirt.. it was thick and hard / semi-pliable almost. like dried tar.. or what it really, REALLY reminds me of is the beige liquid nails...

wasn't like rtv.. was opaque / beige in color.. and thick/tough/hard.. a bet some wanker glued it on to make up for something unseen yet (sigh), and I'm the poor B@st@rd having to deal with it.. :)

that's why when i put something back together, I try to think of the next poor fool taking it apart.. so i try to do things right..

no glueing gaskets on, or glueing drain plugs in..e tc...

soundguy
 
I agree, someone somewhere down the line used his "awkumpucky" fix to hold it on, I agree with heating it up first to soften this "stuff" up, lord only knows how or why.
I know how you feel, but after all it is a cast pulley, and was on there for decades, even if it weren't for the "awkumpucky".
At least it was a "minor" act of god, and is replaceable.
I hate doing things twice, but it seems working on these tractors third time is the charm on many things, sometimes you get lucky, other times it fights you every step of the way.
At least when you do it the third time, you are getting pretty good at it & you start becoming an expert, til then, it's just fun.
 
That's pretty impressive!

If it were me - I'd put your rig back on there.

Pump up the pressure a good amount.

heat the hell out of what's left.

Then take an air chisel to the hub to try to shock it loose. Increase pressure - jack hammer it a bit - increase pressure...

There's a good chance that's epoxy in there, so be sure to really cook it. Epoxy can be real tough stuff - you need to burn that out.
 
had forgotten about the air chissle.. hmm.

that would be less shock / thrust load on the cranksahft too.... good idea!

I have a good air tool, and a good handfull of chissles for it. used it last year to cut the welds out of a welded up power adjust rim where someone welde dthe center tot he rails.. :( then had to use the air hammer to spin the center out so I could clean the rails and center with a angle grinder.

worked good.

thanks

and yes.. I think it is some kind of constructionadhesive/cement or epoxy...

soundguy
 
This is what you should have used. does not flex, puts equal pressure on the pulley. I read horror stories just like what happened to your pulley, so I designed this one.. I also built a hydraulic system to press pulley back on.

Good luck

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i don't think mine flexed either.. the bearing splitter did not bend, nor did my backing plate. my long bolts are still straight as an arrow

still I saved the pics.
 
Guys,

Lots of good advice, but not sure we know all the situation as why the pulley did not come off? I assume that soundguy "cleaned the hole, chased the threads and put in a bolt" in the end of the crankshaft as I think I read? Was there also a thick flat washer in the hole at the time the bolt was replaced? Nothing wrong with destructive disassemble at this point, but if there is a flat washer and bolt in the end of the crankshaft, splitting the hub will still be more difficult than needed. I can measure a crankshaft for the pulley bore dimensions and will post this later. Be sure to clean and measure your crankshaft carefully before buying a new pulley. There are two different size pulley bores depending on the year and method of attachment. Then follow procedures for replacement of: warm pulley to about 200 degrees, apply lubricant to shaft and slide the pulley on the shaft. With the right tool, you can press the pulley on, but that should not be needed if the shaft is properly cleaned with the correct pulley used after warming. Do not attempt to "drive" the pulley onto the shaft as you may cause the crankshaft to break sometime in the future. Then you get the fun of replacing a broken crankshaft after hearing the engine run for several hours under load. Talk about a pinched tube!!! BTDT
 
Torch it.

When we took the front cover off the Super M, Dad didn't even screw around. He heated the pulley and slid it off easily with his giant 2-jaw puller.

I think we tapped it back on with a block of wood and a hammer.

Why do crank pulleys have to fit so tight anyway? They don't need to be a heavy interference fit. There's a bolt and washer holding it on, and after it's been there for a few months, crud and corrosion take over and weld the pulley to the crank anyway.
 
I'll look in the shop later today and see if I still have a good one on hand. I know for sure I have one with a broken lip on the belt pulley but also think I have one that is still on the crank shaft. But I also have a puller I made for just such things and it works well and have not broken one since I made the puller
 
Soundguy,

Crankshaft on that engine should be 1.250 inches plus what was left for interference fit if that is the vintage you have. I would saw or grind down to about 1/16 inch of the shaft on each side and retry the puller. Pulley may split, but you will not be able to saw where the seal rides. Use the key slot for the first cut and if you go too deep, it will be into the key. Key should stick up about 1/8 inch. Better luck with the remainder of the project.
 
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