Super M hydraulics problems (long post)

I have been having a seriously difficult time with my super M hydraulics. I have posted before but nothing to date has worked out. Its a "53 stage 2 with a new idea loader and a Saginaw county 3pt hitch, factory live power, no liftall. I have 3 Gresen valves plumbed in. 2 are Gresen 575 2 way valves (for the bucket cylinders and the 3 pt cylinders) and 1 is a Gresen 300 series 1 way valve for the loader arms. Quick connectors are on the bucket and loader lines. I know for sure the pump is pumping. The problem I am having is hydraulic oil blowing out of the filler vent. I can pull the hydraulic valve selector on the resevoir and I get foamy hydraulic oil out of the cap. Not a little oil under load but lots of oil and air under no load. My valves are working ok because I can raise the loader arms, extend the bucket cylinders and operate the 3pt. I get a whole lot of oil when the loader is lowered. The cylinders are 1 way with 3/8 vents. I don"t see how air can be getting into the hydraulics. I thought I had a pump blockage but I pulled and examined the pump and installed a filter on the return line to the resevoir. I believe loaders were used on super M"s so I can see how I have a capacity problem. I raised the loader arms until I was short on oil then added more as needed. Same thing with the bucket cylinders. I Believe IH used the filler neck for the hydraulic return as there is no other provision on the resevoir. I also extended the fill neck 6" thinking it might not blow up that high but it still does. I"m all out of ideas on this one. My next move is to replace the suction line to the pump thinking I might be drawing in air but at this point it"s a long shot. Any ideas? Anything would help at this point. Anyone willing to give a phone call it"s 802-626-9041. I"ll repost pictures so you can see what I have going on. I can take more pictures too if there"s something else you need to see.

Pretty easy to fix!
There may be more than one problem, but solvable.
The reservoir was originally designed with limited capacity for one way cylinders that had limited volume. The system needs a larger total reservoir to work well. I think there is a drain on the reservoir this should have a 4 way cross fitting and nipples put into it to allow the return to go only to the bottom of the res, while allowing draining as needed.
A secondary reservoir can be placed at the same level as the original, and connected to the original reservoir with that cross fitting.
The secondary reservoir should also have a vent, to allow it to flow, it will fill by putting fluid in the original vent filler cap. Remove the return line from the original filler pipe, its location causes the returning oil to foam as it hits the level of the oil in the res and mixes with air in the neck. It should return into the drain as above. If yours does not have a drain, putting one in is a matter of drilling a hole about 5/8" above the inside floor to drain the reservoir, then drilling and tapping that hole for 1/2" pipe thread. clean out all chips by flushing the tank and wiping and using a magnet to retrieve chips. Good luck and perseverance are needed. Jim

Good luck and perseverance. Thank you again Jim.

Another suggestion along with Jims. Think the drain hole is only 1/4 pipe thread. You can do the return like IH did when a two way valve was added to that hydraulic system. Install a tee where suction line exits the reservoir or along the way and dump return oil there. Other alternatives, make another opening in reservoir. Or gut reservoir valving and send pressure line straight to valves with a pressure relief added. Dump oil in the former pressure hole or one of the openings on rear of the reservoir.
Lots of working tractors with that reservoir and loaders had a extra small tank made up to screw in the fill hole with vent on top or similiar extra capacity.

Are you sure they are single acting cylinders? I have a new idea loader on a 450D It two hoses going into the Cylinder rod they are two way.

Thanks,D Slater. I did not know IH put the return in the suction line. That will work great. So either way I am looking at a capacity problem. I can't imagine the extra tank needs to be very large. I have not calculated the volume of these cylinders. This is the first time I've done anything with tractor hydraulics but I'm very slowly getting there.

I believe they are 1 way cylinders. They have been working ok aside from my resevoir issues. There are two ports on only one end of the cylinder. I have 1 line and 1 vent.

Heres what I did.Remove the "christmas tree" valve,Install a tee in that port-one side is suction.take pressure line from pump directly to the valves.Return line from valves goes to the other leg of the suction tee.Did this almost 30 years ago.never had any problems.I hope the pic shows enough detail to help.Steve

Thanks Bryan sk. If they are not single acting cylinders as you think then I will swap out my valve and run another set of hard lines. Just when I thought I was close to done! Thanks.
BTW, what kind of down pressure do you get with the loader on the 450D?

I had that thought, But I thought there might be an issue with heat when bypassing the reservoir with a direct return to the pump. With continuous hard use in the heat of summer the cooling might be needed. (just thinking out loud. Jim

When you have the bucket turned down you can lift the front end of tractor off the ground

Bryan sk gave me a call and said he has a new idea loader too. The cylinders are apparently two way cylinders with both of the ports on the same end of the cylinder. I have never seen this anywhere and had just assumed 1 port was for a vent and 1 was for the pressure and return. I'll have some more work to do. This apparently takes care of the capacity problems.

It does, but does not cure the foaming issue. Putting the return it the bottom of the reservoir is a good idea. Jim

Jim I agree with that not being the best setup for a loader and not the best for ideal hydraulics. With the limited oil capacity the oil will get back to the suction quickly anywhere its returned with that reservoir.

I think I will run the return line across the tractor to the suction line for now. I don't know at what temperatures hydraulics become too hot but this tractor won't see too many hot days of work in the near future. Maybe some snow removal duty first. What might work best for me is placing another resevoir between the suction line and the existing tank. The choke, starter and clutch, along with all my hoses are on the other side so it's pretty crowded already. Any thoughts on how much extra oil will be needed to keep it running cool? Thanks again to everyone for helping out. I have never encountered 2 way pistons with ports on one side only although my experience is pretty limited. The oil must go through the center to the other side of the seals in the cylinder.

2 gallons in an aluminum tank would be super. Here is but one example that could be installed in a tight space. Jim
Potential usable product.

Seems to me the return line should be out the other end of three valves.

Your problem is that you're using the fill pipe as the return line.

I can't even get oil in that pipe with a funnel on mine. It runs VERY slowly. You're trying to shove a bunch of oil in there under pressure! No wonder it squirts out!!!

Look over the hydraulic block. There are pipe plugs in several locations on the body of the block. These are potential return ports. I used the 1" plug on the right rear of the block.

If your hydraulic pump isn't making funny noises, getting hot, etc., AND the loader seems to have good lift capability, there's nothing wrong internally.

Oh yeah, in your last picture it looks like you haven't connected the OUT side of the third (left) valve! Oil should be squirting out there like crazy!

I have the same observations about the plumbing as
mkirsch. As in: something doesn't look right with
the last control valve.

karl f