Farmall M water gauge disaster

AES · Jul 14, 2011

Another day in the never-ending challenges of stripped bolts, broken extractors, etc:

Today I attempted to remove the old water temperature gauge. The gauge, sensor and wire were no problem until I attempted to remove the block insert (the larger diameter brass piece that fits into the engine block). It stripped off leaving the balance flush with the block.

I hope I can find a left-hand bit or helicoil insert to fit as the block insert is quite large. I don't know they are made that large.

Has anyone else experience this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Allen

Anonymous-0 · Jul 15, 2011

Did it strip out or twist it off? You should be able to take an easyout and back it out.

Owen Aaland · Jul 15, 2011

You must have found an antique if you have one still made out of brass.

Just chisel the broken piece out of the head. The threads in the head are 1/2" National Pipe Thread so they are tapered. If you have to you can cut PART WAY through the old bushing to get it to break out easier. Do not cut into the threads or you will not be able to seal the new bushing in the head.

A bigger problem may be, if you are reusing the old gauge, to find a replacement bushing. There are a couple of different styles and you need one to match the old gauge.

AES · Jul 15, 2011

(quoted from post at 01:16:55 07/15/11) Did it strip out or twist it off? You should be able to take an easyout and back it out.

The last time I used an easyout it broke off in the block and I had to have a welder come to the farm to remove it. - not doing that again.

If I couldn't get the water gauge block insert out with a long 7/8" wrench I doubt it would budge with an easyout.

Thanks anyway for the reply.

Allen

AES · Jul 15, 2011

I think I was incorrect when I said it was made of brass its a yellowish metal so must be a mixture of metals (copper?).

The wrench size to fit the water gauge block insert was 7/8". Threads are nearly 3/4 but am not 100% sure. The gauge sensor insert (the one attached to the end of the wire) looks like 1/2" as you mentioned.

It is the larger block insert that was twisted off. As mentioned, I'm not sure a helicoil can be found that large.

I have a new gauge (with temp. sensor insert and block insert).

The tractor is a 1952 Farmall M

Allen

Owen Aaland · Jul 15, 2011

The thread in the head is 1/2 inch NPT. The nominal size of the OD of that thread is about 3/4 inch.

AES · Jul 15, 2011

(quoted from post at 08:14:45 07/15/11) The thread in the head is 1/2 inch NPT. The nominal size of the OD of that thread is about 3/4 inch.

Ok - I understand what you're saying. Thanks.

Anonymous-0 · Jul 15, 2011

Aes I have used easy outs for years and never broke one. If you want good ones buy through a industral suppler. The ones out harbor freight,TSC,and hardware store are not good quality tools. When I put the new one back in block i use anti-seize on threads. If you ever have to replace it it will easy to get out.

AES · Jul 15, 2011

(quoted from post at 14:04:13 07/15/11) Aes I have used easy outs for years and never broke one. If you want good ones buy through a industral suppler. The ones out harbor freight,TSC,and hardware store are not good quality tools. When I put the new one back in block i use anti-seize on threads. If you ever have to replace it it will easy to get out.

d beatty,

Thanks for the tip. I think I purchased the extractor set at NAPA. I'll have to check. It was such a huge inconvenience to find a welder to travel to the farm to remove the brocken stud (with extractor in place) that I've been a bit paranoid about ever using one again. The welder in my home town (Greenfield, IA) is always too busy for small jobs (even though I'm a paying customer). I found a retired welder in another town very friendly, who was happy to do the job for $30.

Can you recommend a specific brand of extractor that you have used with success?

Also, since you have much more experience than I what penetrating oil do you recommend? I've always used WD40.

Thanks again for any help. I'd ultimately like to remove it without drilling a helicoil hole.

Allen

Janicholson · Jul 15, 2011

From the Advert on the net:
6 Pc Square Easy Out USA
USA made by DESCO. These screw extractors will cover any job up to 3/4". They have the square flute design so they won't spread the bolt. You get #1 to #6 in a handy pouch. No. Removes Bolts & Screws Drill Size 1 3/16" to 5/16" 9/64" 2 3/8" 3/16" 3 7/16" to 18" pipe 15/64" 4 1/2" to 9/16" & 1/4" pipe 5/16" 5 5/8" & 3/8" pipe 3/8" 6 3/4" & 1/2" pipe 15/32&quot... $29.9
They work on Brass fittings very well.
Follow the directions.
With respect and FYI, Brass is a metal compound of copper and zinc, Copper is a pure element. Jim

AES · Jul 15, 2011

(quoted from post at 14:36:09 07/15/11) From the Advert on the net:
6 Pc Square Easy Out USA
USA made by DESCO. These screw extractors will cover any job up to 3/4". They have the square flute design so they won't spread the bolt. You get #1 to #6 in a handy pouch. No. Removes Bolts & Screws Drill Size 1 3/16" to 5/16" 9/64" 2 3/8" 3/16" 3 7/16" to 18" pipe 15/64" 4 1/2" to 9/16" & 1/4" pipe 5/16" 5 5/8" & 3/8" pipe 3/8" 6 3/4" & 1/2" pipe 15/32"... $29.9
They work on Brass fittings very well.
Follow the directions.
With respect and FYI, Brass is a metal compound of copper and zinc, Copper is a pure element. Jim

Oh yes, Copper = CU on the table of elements. I knew that

As mentioned, I had a 7/8 box-end wrench on the engine block insert (bushing?) of the water temp. gauge. I'm hard to convince that an extactor set would have more success. It's tempting to give it a try.

Allen

Janicholson · Jul 15, 2011

It is always better to have full section of the original to work from, however it is moot now.
THE SQUARE (NON SPIRAL) easy outs are used by hammering them in until they make 4 grooves in the brass. These grooves in the soft material also deform the threads some as they are formed. I like to tap the extractor loose after forming the grooves such that I can tap it in gently to assure I am not swelling the brass. Then lefty loosy on the extractor. If it strips the grooves, you have lost nothing. Do it again a little deeper. If twice and no go, Heat the brass with a propane torch as hot as you can get it (or pretty darn hot with Oxy acetylene but not melted) then let it cool. Then do the extractor bit again.
Cutting through the side of the brass (toward but not into the threads from the inside of the hole to the outside can make it easy to get out as well. Patience is a virtue. Jim

Heat Houser · Jul 15, 2011

Get a carbide cutter, chuck it into a drill or air motor and carefully remove/grind the "plug" down to the treads. Take a seal pick and carefully pry the thread "helix" out of the head.

You will need:
Good access to control the carbide cutter (doing it by hand you know)
Good lighting (to check how close you are getting to the threads)
Patience (and time)
Various swear words....LOL

Pulled many a broken bolt that way but with bolts, you need to drill a center hole first to allow the cutter in. The last one I did was on my 560 Farmall and a gas tank frame bolt into the clutch housing. Welding on a nut would not work.

fixerupper · Jul 15, 2011

Or if you don't have a die grinder or Dremel grind down a hacksaw blade so it'll fit in the hole and start sawing away with the teeth pointed so it cuts when you pull it out toward you. There are handles made for this too. It's tedius for sure but it works in a pinch. Cut two slots opposite each other and then cave the bushing in with a small chisel or punch. Doesn't hurt to kick back and have a beer when your arm starts hurting and you start getting frustrated. Jim

GordoSD · Jul 15, 2011

WD-40 (water displaceing) is a metal preservative, primarily fish oil. It is NOT an oil or even a penetrating oil.Spray on stuff to keep from rusting.
Try PB Blaster or the penetrating oil sold by your IH dealer. It has integrated spout tube that you never lose.

sflem849 · Jul 15, 2011

(quoted from post at 16:56:33 07/15/11) WD-40 (water displaceing) is a metal preservative, primarily fish oil. It is NOT an oil or even a penetrating oil.Spray on stuff to keep from rusting.
Try PB Blaster or the penetrating oil sold by your IH dealer. It has integrated spout tube that you never lose.

Fluid Film at the JD dealer is pretty BA as well.

heavyhaulertoo · Jul 15, 2011

I have found that a straight chisel driven in the right size, it is stong enouht to turn the fitting outwith out braking the fitting or the chisel.

AES · Jul 16, 2011

It is as if the block "bushing" is welded to the block. I'm going to buy the square extractors and try them after spraying PB Blaster on it for a week.

Does anyone have any thoughts on using MAPP or prpane gas to heat up the area around the bushing? Has anyone here used that and can offer their experiences?

Thanks much.

Allen

Owen Aaland · Jul 17, 2011

If you are going to use heat it is best to heat the adapter itself. Get it as hot as you can and let the surrounding area of the head stay cool. If you heat the head the cast iron will never take on heat fast enough compared to the broken part to expand due to differences in temperature. The brass will heat much faster than the surrounding cast iron. If you can get the brass hot enough it will expand faster than the cast iron. As it expands, once it reaches it's limits of elasticity it will start to deform and it tries to expand further. Once it deforms, when it cools it will start to shrink away from the cast iron. You just have to watch so that you do not actually melt the brass which could cause it to fuse to the cast iron. If you ise a propane torch that should not be a problem.

36F30 · Jul 17, 2011

Along with Owens heating method if you apply natural bees wax as the piece cools it works extremely well as a penetrant and lube

rustyfarmall · Jul 17, 2011

(quoted from post at 08:30:51 07/17/11) If you are going to use heat it is best to heat the adapter itself. Get it as hot as you can and let the surrounding area of the head stay cool. If you heat the head the cast iron will never take on heat fast enough compared to the broken part to expand due to differences in temperature. The brass will heat much faster than the surrounding cast iron. If you can get the brass hot enough it will expand faster than the cast iron. As it expands, once it reaches it's limits of elasticity it will start to deform and it tries to expand further. Once it deforms, when it cools it will start to shrink away from the cast iron. You just have to watch so that you do not actually melt the brass which could cause it to fuse to the cast iron. If you ise a propane torch that should not be a problem.

Yes, that is the method I used to remove one from an H head just recently. I had to heat it and let it cool 3 full times before it finally let loose. I tried heating the cast iron AROUND the adaptor first, but that is just TOO much iron to heat uniformly and I never made any progress at all.

AES · Jul 17, 2011

(quoted from post at 13:30:49 07/17/11)

(quoted from post at 08:30:51 07/17/11) If you are going to use heat it is best to heat the adapter itself. Get it as hot as you can and let the surrounding area of the head stay cool. If you heat the head the cast iron will never take on heat fast enough compared to the broken part to expand due to differences in temperature. The brass will heat much faster than the surrounding cast iron. If you can get the brass hot enough it will expand faster than the cast iron. As it expands, once it reaches it's limits of elasticity it will start to deform and it tries to expand further. Once it deforms, when it cools it will start to shrink away from the cast iron. You just have to watch so that you do not actually melt the brass which could cause it to fuse to the cast iron. If you ise a propane torch that should not be a problem.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is the method I used to remove one from an H head just recently. I had to heat it and let it cool 3 full times before it finally let loose. I tried heating the cast iron AROUND the adaptor first, but that is just TOO much iron to heat uniformly and I never made any progress at all.

This is all very encouraging. I'm anxious to get to the farm and try some of these methods.

AES · Aug 8, 2011

Saturday I tried heating the twisted-off water-temp. gauge adapter that remains in the engine block with my propane torch as suggested in a previous post. I worked on it in 5 minute intervals for nearly 40 minutes to no avail. I used a 1/2" square extractor in intervals as I heated it. The heat had no affect whatsoever.

Today I stopped by a machine shop to see what a helicoil would cost. The machinist told me that the metal was not a brass fitting as I thought but actually steel (the new water gauge was also zinc coated steel). No wonder the propane torch didn't affect it. He also said that the adapter was 1/2" pipe thread and that a helicoil kit would cost around $150.

I know someone who used a mig welder to remove a twisted water jacket stud on this tractor last year but unfortunately there is no part of the adapter protruding from the block. It is less than flush so no area to weld to.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Short of an expensive helicoil I am at a loss.

Allen

Tom Fleming · Aug 8, 2011

ok, I am going to ask a fairly dumb question. Why not just drill it out and retap it? Find the correct drill size for a 1/2" NPT tap, and drill it out. Then invest in the 1/2" NPT tap, they are NOT that expensive.

I only go so far, then I drill and retap. Only drawback there is that you need to be sure to be centered.

ps. teflon tape or pipe dope will work well if you damage one side of the hole. Locktight also makes a thread sealer that will correct damaged threads if the damage is not too drastic.

AES · Aug 9, 2011

(quoted from post at 21:15:08 08/08/11) ok, I am going to ask a fairly dumb question. Why not just drill it out and retap it? Find the correct drill size for a 1/2" NPT tap, and drill it out. Then invest in the 1/2" NPT tap, they are NOT that expensive.

I only go so far, then I drill and retap. Only drawback there is that you need to be sure to be centered.

ps. teflon tape or pipe dope will work well if you damage one side of the hole. Locktight also makes a thread sealer that will correct damaged threads if the damage is not too drastic.

Thanks for the reply, Tom.

So you end up creating a new set of threads, crossing over the old ones unless you hit the lottery and match the old ones?

But - your suggestion may be the only feasible option:

1) I don't own a torch other than small cans of propane and propylene torches (Benzomatic).
2) I don't own an air wrench to "impact" the old adapter out
3) If I spent the money on 1 & 2 I would just as soon buy the heli-coil.

I have attached a photo taken with my cellphone:

The inner wall of the adapter looks very strange: as though there is a separate, crusty inner lining. Perhaps this is a residue left from the water-temp gauge insert (the part that screws into the adapter). The 6-point nut of the adapter was twisted off in the attempt to extract it.

One other significant point - the adapter o.d. is 3/4", not 1/2" as I thought (the gauge sensor is 1/2 - same as I.D. of adapter). That is one reason why tools, heli-coils, etc. are so expensive.

Thanks much,

Allen

Tom Fleming · Aug 9, 2011

to be honest, 9 times out of 10, I get partway through the drilling and the broken off piece comes loose. Also, it is helpful to start with a drill bit that is 2-3 sizes smaller than the final size for tapping. Work your way up. Patience here is critical, but I have always gotten good results with this method.

I just got done rebuilding the carb for my regular. The idle speed screw broke off flush. It was steel, and the carb is brass. Nightmare thoughts. However, I started with a small drill bit and worked my way up, slowly and patiently. Ended up having to drill to the final size for the tap. Had to buy an uncommon tap size 12-28. All turned out well, and the new screw goes in like a champ.

Bottom line, take your time, drill it out, and retap if necessary. Worst case, you can JB weld a new bushing in there if necessary, or have one brased in if a total melt down occurs with your efforts.

IMHO of course.

Farmall M water gauge disaster

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