All Fuel C ?

Did IH have an all-fuel C ? Someone says they have one over in photos, but I didn't think there was such a thing.

All letter series tractors had the dual fuel option available. The C-113 based tractors came from the factory for gas only as a standard, and the dual fuel was a dealer option.

All fuel is the wrong term for IH. IH made gasoline, distillate and kerosene engines for the letter and early number series. The distillate and kerosene engines had minor differences, I have never compared them. I imagine there were more kerosene or distillate H's and M's than any other model.

(quoted from post at 07:00:17 07/24/11) All fuel is the wrong term for IH. IH made gasoline, distillate and kerosene engines for the letter and early number series. The distillate and kerosene engines had minor differences, I have never compared them. I imagine there were more kerosene or distillate H's and M's than any other model.

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How does that work? I know in JD you could burn kero or dist in the "all fuel" tractors, but IH was specific to kero OR dist in their tractors. Why is that?

Would a kero tractor be noted on the serial tag with a specific suffix where a dist tractor would have nothing? (I know the factory gas would have the X1)

I believe the difference is in the carb. Here is the parts list for the dual fuel option:

1.) low compression pistons
2.) butterfly manifold with heat shield
3.) shutters and temp guage
4.) carb
5.) starting tank with fittings
6.) hood


And that is right out of the IH intro manual for dealers from 1939 for the Farmall A. First sentence says, "New in 1939, a smaller Farmall, the Farmall A"

I don't know the details, but I doubt if any one could tell the difference in power between a distillate and kerosene engine, regardless of which of those fuels was used. All I have read is IH's statement that goes something like "the engine performs best on the fuel for which it was designed". The only important thing that statement means to me is that a dist or kero engine would develop more power on that specific fuel than it would on gasoline. That is meaningless for those still using the tractors now because distillate is no longer available and kerosene is priced out of the market. X3 was kerosene, X17 distillate. I'm not sure IH was consistent with those labels. My 41 H has no X notation. I think the gas X1 notation was used on most or all H's and M's, but almost never on A's, B's, and C's. Jim Becker or Dave Slater can correct me. My 48 and 50 C's both have no notation and both are factory gas. I have already guessed at more than I know.

For tractor models that had both distillate and kerosene options, I think the main difference between the two was compression ratio. They both needed the hot maniford, carb with an adjustable main jet etc. If you check the parts catalogs, you will find different heads and/or pistons for the two versions. Higher compression ratios for any fuel improve efficiency but is limited by preignition. Since each of the 3 fuels has a different octane rating, the compression limit is different for each fuel. As I recall, distillate requires a lower compression ratio than kerosene.

A company can produce an "all-fuel" engine by building it to the lowest grade fuel. Higher grade fuels in will be used less efficiently than if used with a higher compression ratio. In the '40s and '50s, most gasoline engines were designed for about 70 octane fuel. Octane rating of regular gas has been in the high 80s for a long time. That is what now allows substitution of higher compression pistons.

(quoted from post at 12:06:26 07/24/11) All I have read is IH's statement that goes something like "the engine performs best on the fuel for which it was designed".
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X3 was kerosene, X17 distillate. I'm not sure IH was consistent with those labels.

My 41 H has no X notation. I think the gas X1 notation was used on most or all H's and M's, but almost never on A's, B's, and C's.

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I think in this case, "performs best" is probably most work per dollar of fuel. The distillate engines probably had more power on gasoline but at the cost of using a much more expensive fuel. Kerosene back then was much lower grade (and cheaper) than the K-1 you commonly find today.

Most serial number suffixes were shared across multiple models but were not universal. I have to guess a little here too. The A came as standard equipment with a gasoline engine, the distillate equipment was an option. Thus the suffix-free serial number would indicate a gasoline engine. On the other hand, the H and M came as standard equipment with distillate equipment. The gasoline engine was a later option. Thus the suffix-free serial number would indicate a distillate engine and the X1 suffix was added for gasoline engines.

I do not think the fuel choice was a dealer option as the Farmall Super A and the Farmall C with the c113 engine had different heads for the three fuels, gasoline, distillate and kerosene. The kerosene had the lowest compression ratio, about 4.4:1, the distillate was higher at about 4.7:1 and the gasoline engine about 5.6:1. The kerosene engines and operation were similar, the manuals covered the distillate option and then said that the kerosene engine was operated in a similar manner, one started on gasoline, when the engine was hot the change was then made to distillate (or kerosene). The engine had to be kept hot, hence the need for shutters.
The distillate tractors, besides having the lower compression heads, had the small gasoline starting tank, attached to the right-hand side of the head, adjustable temperature manifold with heat shield, different carburetor (adjustable jets and easily operated drain), water temperature gauge (above the governor) and radiator shutters. All this would normally be factory fitted. In New Zealand in the early 1850s, kerosene was a third of the price of gasoline and was a very popular choice. Distillate was unknown. When gasoline without the road tax became available for farmers the change form kerosene was fairly rapid as it avoided the starting difficulties with kerosene but also the having of two sorts of fuel around and the more frequent oil changes as well as the daily draining of the top of the sump were no longer required. Most of the shutters were removed and tossed into the back of the tractor shed where they got damaged and are quite difficult to find today. The starting tanks were usually retained to act as a reserve tank.
All one needs to do is read a Farmall manual written from 1939 to about 1952 for all the details. IHC tractors in the 1930s were similar except that kerosene was the normal fuel and radiator curtains were more common than shutters. Radiator shutters appeared about 1937 and temperature gauges appeared about the same time.
I have a 1948 Farmall Super A which is set up for kerosene, the only missing part is the heat shield (to be removed when running on gasoline) and I have yet to free up the manifold heat control valve. My 1941 W-4 is also a kerosene tractor which was missing the heat-shield and the shutters. Again the manifold heat control valve needs freeing. Otherwise, both manifolds are in very good condition. I have since found a set of shutters for the W-4, the same as those for a Farmall H. However, as kerosene is more than twice the price of gasoline the missing heat shields are not of great concern.

Here is another hijack for you. I was called anything but right when I said that kero was way more expensive than diesel. (It was in a post on using it to flush out a rear end) Around here diesel is 3.90 and kero is 4.25 or more. If you had access to off road diesel it would be around 3.60. Where are people getting this cheap kero nowdays?

Uh, I posted that on the price of Kerosene.........and I didn't call you "everything but right". I pointed out that here in Western Pa, Kero vs. on-road diesel is cheaper by at least $0.20 - $0.40 per gallon. Current price for kero here is $3.69, diesel is $4.09, 87 regular gas is $3.69, 92 Super is $3.99 if you like, I can post a link to the current prices at the local retailer's.

Athol, I"ll have to open the book again, but I am not sure I agree about the C-113 engines having different heads. I know the M and the H did, as well as their W counterparts, but I dont' think the C-113 models had different heads. I have been wrong before, and I will post what I find.

Tom, you are correct, for the C113 engines, two head, the same one was used for kerosene and distillate. The C152 engine (W-4) had three different heads, one each for kerosene, distillate and gasoline. I apologize for the error.

Jim -- makes sense and explains why the X1 apparantly does not show on the A,B, and C. The kerosene/distillate engine is listed as an attachment in Guy Fay's data book, but in his letter series book he says that kerosene/distillate was standard on all tractors. I tend to believe the data book. The only mention of the X1 suffix in the data book is the H/M. Otherwise X1 should have showed up on the C113. Unless as you say the suffixies were not universal from one model to the other. My dad had the first B sold in my home county in Texas. That was probably 1939 or 1940, I do not remember a starting tank. I would have been 1 or 2 years old, I may never have driven that one. I did drive a 2nd postwar B during one summer before my dad lost the farm.

(quoted from post at 16:26:48 07/24/11) Uh, I posted that on the price of Kerosene.........and I didn't call you "everything but right". I pointed out that here in Western Pa, Kero vs. on-road diesel is cheaper by at least $0.20 - $0.40 per gallon. Current price for kero here is $3.69, diesel is $4.09, 87 regular gas is $3.69, 92 Super is $3.99 if you like, I can post a link to the current prices at the local retailer's.
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IIRC, there were a few others that were more intense about it. I can't believe your kero is so cheap. I wonder how that can be!?! Especially when your diesel is .10 higher then ours. Probably more soybeans in our diesel making it cheaper.

I usually rely on the Data Book also. In this case, I went to the "1940 List Prices". For the A it lists standard equipment including a gasoline engine. The distillate attachent is listed as an option. For the H and M, standard equipment includes a "distillate or gasoline burning engine". There was no gasoline engine option at that time.

These sorts of things (what was available and what was standard) changed over time . But usually the suffix letters would be left alone for a given model.