Thoughts on "originality", NOT a rant on being &qu

Tom Fleming · Mar 1, 2011

Ok, there are as many differing opinions on originality and "correctness" out there as Carter has pills. Here is my question. For internal parts, ones that are NEVER seen, like the oil slinger disk on the early A, B, BN tractor PTO's. I am interested to see what that various thoughts are on making sure ALL parts were correct if your objective was to make a correct restoration. I have paid some obscene amounts of money for NOS and original EXTERIOR parts, not sure what I think about the internal ones.

Here is why I ask. I like to make things as original as possible, but I don't loose sleep if I can't. However, the reason for exterior correctness is obvious, because we take these to shows and want to represent how these tractors came from the dealer, etc. Internal parts, however, will never be seen. Now for sure, 90% of the attendee's at shows won't appreciate DOT bolts, or a distilate manifold vs. a gasoline one. The only ones who will be impressed by that are a few, REAL collectors. however, original, is original. FWIW, this is also not a question on resale value or return on investment. We all agree, that this is NOT the hobby for that.

I know all of the answers here will be based upon each person's opinion, but that is what I am curious about, each of your opinions. None are right and none are wrong, so keep it civil boys!

Nebraska Cowman · Mar 1, 2011

To quote Charlie Brown, it's like "peeing yourself
in a dark suit, it gives you a warm feeling but
nobody else notices" I restore my tractors for ME
and I know what's inside.

Shawn in PA · Mar 1, 2011

I personally don't care one which way it's done. I'm not gonna worry about every nut and bolt on any of mine. I use mine rather than show. To me, usefullness and ingenuity grab my attention more so than originality. I think Warder has some cool stuff. Thats the kinda things I like seeing at shows too. It gives me a chance to check out all the mods that guys did over the years. Sometimes I don't even like them painted. Either way it's yours. Do what ya want....Shawn

James Williams · Mar 1, 2011

Personally,I love orginality on the outside,but dot bolts never impressed me.I enjoy my Farmall Reg in her work clothes,and I like my others painted {not a trailer Queen}I have a friend that has a beatiful JD H with a lawn mower seat on it this tractor drives me crazy.Tractors with equipmemt on them is nice also,and dirt on the tires doesnt hurt anything

jimmy

Oldiron29 · Mar 1, 2011

Tom, You give the "correct police" to much credit. I like looking to see what I can find that is changed but never told anyone, what is not correct unless they ask. I never saw Guy Fay tell someone not to do that to there tractor.
Alot of the olde's have been put back together from pieces. Glade they where saved. Half the hunt is looking for one that may be real original. Love the story's of 80 year old tractors the Barn Find! oldiron29

Oldiron29 · Mar 1, 2011

As Jimmy said Tractors with equipment and impliment a big plus. These are the things that are hard to find and get parts for. Oldiron29

oldtanker · Mar 1, 2011

To me it don't matter. I love going to tractor shows and just looking. I'd never, at this point in my life, collect or restore. All my stuff is working equipment. I think an old H with a 12 volt conversion is just as good as an all original painted up one.

I know a guy who has a very pretty, all original H with a 5k paint job. He drove that tractor home from the dealership, at age 12 when his dad got it new. Ok no big deal. I can see to where that is important to him.

Know another guy that hates collectors. He is on SS disability and VA disability. He makes about 800 a month. He'd like to have an H or WD45 but they are just out of his price range. He blames the collector. He refuses to see that if it wasn't for the collector that these old tractors would have been crushed long ago as they were phased out of farming.

So when you get to internals for both the "correct" restoration or a daily driver it really don't matter. I rather doubt that any old tractor is 100% correct unless it went from the factory to a museum. All the others have at least had an engine rebuild and new clutch. Bet most of those were not done with OEM parts.

Rick

Allan from PA · Mar 1, 2011

Tom, I appreciate all the equipment I see for a lot of reasons. The brand new looking ones, the working ones, and the ones that the original or previous owners modified for their own use which shows their ingenuity. As far as internal parts, what ever works is OK by me. I like the original ones because they were made for that specific use, but good used ones are getting harder to come by and more expensive as time goes by. It still boils down to the point that it is your tractor and you can do with it as you please. Allan.

Jim350 · Mar 1, 2011

Can't help you on that one because I work my tractors and use any part that keeps them going.
Never took one to Show and Tell.

Dave H (MI) · Mar 1, 2011

I never appreciated DOT bolts either until I removed, cleaned, stripped, primed and repainted an entire tractors worth of bolts. If nothing else you gain an appreciation for the effort.

sflem849 · Mar 1, 2011

Where do period appropriate aftermarket parts come into play? I sure don't want to take out my M&W kit. You can't see that, so do I pass? Where does the M&W governer come into play? I don't want to take that off either? How about this? Should it stay or should it go? (After I take the cobbled up bolt and nut/washer setup off)

To me, it doesn't matter what's inside. I will even weld thing up on the inside so you can't see it on the outside or things like that. I do like mine to look original on the outside. You bet your but I put the cast iron seal retainer in my MD when I found one. I didn't want problems from the white metal POS again.

Red Dave · Mar 1, 2011

I like a tractor to look original, but any changes, updates or aftermarket parts that a farmer would have put on over the years to increase the usefulness or reliability are fine with me too.

If I am replacing an internal part with an improved modern part that makes the tractor a better tractor, I'll do it every time.

Any tractor that has been painted in the past 25 years is no longer original. Today's paint is far superior to the paint used by the factory. Would I let that stop me from painting a tractor? Of course not!

Originality is great, but I wouldn't take it to ridicules extremes.

Janicholson · Mar 1, 2011

Try to find an original pair of shoelaces to make your dress shoes "original" go for what is equal to or better than original. If an after market (M&W) part is OK to be included, You are just doing the aftermarket thing personally. Jim

IH fan · Mar 1, 2011

I enjoy seeing them all, but what I really appreciate is if any modifications or additions are well done, not cobbled.
I built fixtures and modifications to tractors and other machines as part of my maintenance and fabrication job in a hydraulics company experimental lab. We always tried to make the modifications look "clean" and as close to a factory set-up as possible. Of course in a lot of factory installations, they would use a special casting instead of our welded up steel fixtures, but it still had to be a neat, clean installation for when the customer came in to see it.

sflem849 · Mar 1, 2011

I forgot to add that IMO a "correct police paint job" looks horrible especially if you use noncorrect paint. With the high gloss finish that is common on todays restorations painting EVERY SINGLE THING red including gen, wires, belts, hoses, everything looks terrible. The pourous hoses, woven loom wires, and belts look terrible especially when they more a little bit and that high gloss paint starts to crack and get goofy. Truthfully the correct police would want you to use some chalky crap from 1950 so you could repaint it in 10 years. I suppose they would want you to do a terrible job and have runs and unpainted areas on the bottom of the tractor as well. After all...it is the factory look!

Nebraska Cowman · Mar 1, 2011

It's an Art Form. If you like it that way that's all
that matters.

luv2wrench · Mar 1, 2011

As I ve heard from some good ol boys, even the decals from the factory werent always straight. Could you amagine if you would put some Cub stickers on just a lil cock eyed on a show tractor and what people would say. They just don't know or understand.

NDS · Mar 1, 2011

I can safely say that around me at least the people that bought them new did not give a rats axx about keeping them original and not much more abour cosmetics, they were a tool to work with nothing more.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 1, 2011

I've ggot to get my grandpa's C to more shows. it needs a paint job, a radiator hole fixed and a grill strainghtened out right now. The welded on step, the fireaxed axles to fit between the trees, The the mounts for the homeade snowplows will remain as he intended. The reason I did originality books is the publisher wanted them, and I was tired of what the correct police were telling people at the time, which was usually dead wrong.

sflem849 · Mar 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 12:36:23 03/01/11) I've ggot to get my grandpa's C to more shows. it needs a paint job, a radiator hole fixed and a grill strainghtened out right now. The welded on step, the fireaxed axles to fit between the trees, The the mounts for the homeade snowplows will remain as he intended. The reason I did originality books is the publisher wanted them, and I was tired of what the correct police were telling people at the time, which was usually dead wrong.

My wife appreciates the books. She needs Christmas present ideas. :lol:

rustyfarmall · Mar 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 12:36:23 03/01/11) I've ggot to get my grandpa's C to more shows. it needs a paint job, a radiator hole fixed and a grill strainghtened out right now. The welded on step, the fireaxed axles to fit between the trees, The the mounts for the homeade snowplows will remain as he intended. The reason I did originality books is the publisher wanted them, and I was tired of what the correct police were telling people at the time, which was usually dead wrong.

Thank you for that insight. It's amazing how many "experts" we have today, and most of those "experts" are not old enough to have seen a brand new Farmall H setting on the dealers showroom floor.

D Slater · Mar 1, 2011

I agree with oldiron29, I may say how the originals were, or how I think they were, but thats as far as it goes. I like to look at them all. My favorites are clean unrestored working tractors. Trouble with what Rusty said is some people old enough to see a new farmall H at the dealers have memories that fail sometimes. I can be included in that sometimes.

GordoSD · Mar 1, 2011

Start soaking those forward collar set screws with some rust buster and move it back toght against the column. Will take some of the play out of the steering.

Gordo

Tom Fleming · Mar 1, 2011

Great bunch of comments and opinions. Personally, I have a couple of working tractors, and I have a couple I take to shows. Ones that I am working on to "restore", I am trying my best to put that reasonably back to the way they were. The insides don't really mean much to me, as long as they work and are reliable.

This is a good thread guys, nice to see I am keeping good company!

muleboss · Mar 1, 2011

If it is internal and I can not see it how will I know???

Farmall Bob · Mar 1, 2011

Red Dave, I couldn't have said it better myself. I like to see aftermarket parts, or anything that will make the tractor operate better to do the work at hand. I use my tractor as a work tractor, though I will like to use it in parades or pulling shows also.
Bob

Faster346 · Mar 1, 2011

This raises a question I've been curious about for a while now. Do more people use their Farmalls, or are they now "show and parade" pieces? I have three Farmalls (A 46 M, a 48 H, and a 51 Super C) and I use them all on my farm. The H is the only one I rarely use. It's been in the family a while and has been show room restored, because of that. It has a updated 12v electrical system, but other than that is mostly original. I have 12v conversions done because they're more reliable, and modern, and for me it's function over form.

sflem849 · Mar 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 20:11:43 03/01/11) This raises a question I've been curious about for a while now. Do more people use their Farmalls, or are they now "show and parade" pieces? I have three Farmalls (A 46 M, a 48 H, and a 51 Super C) and I use them all on my farm. The H is the only one I rarely use. It's been in the family a while and has been show room restored, because of that. It has a updated 12v electrical system, but other than that is mostly original. I have 12v conversions done because they're more reliable, and modern, and for me it's function over form.

I am for 12 v, but I don't like an alternator setup. I guess that is the compromise for me.
I own too many tractors to say I farm with them...but yes...I farm...and I could do it with one. (Don't tell my wife)

oldtanker · Mar 1, 2011

I really laugh at "all original" old tractors. No such thing! All of the ones sold to farmers or anyone else who used em have had at least one clutch job and an engine rebuild. Now how many of them old tight wad farmers ever passed up a chance to save a few bucks by using after market clutches and rebuild kits? Lot of older "fully restored" tractors where the OEM engine kits are NLA. Heck of a lot of em have TISCO kits in the engines. So much for the "rivet counters" (term used in model railroading for the guys who will actually count the rivets in a train car with a magnifying glass to be sure that the correct number are there for a year/model/make train car). Correct police in the old tractor/car world.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of those old restored tractors are works of love and I do admire those who do the work! But I'll never do that because some of your newer hardware is better than original. So why and the heck would I use substandard parts? I know a guy with an H. It looks amazing! Has a 5K paint job. But he drove that tractor home new from the dealership when he was 12. It's stored in a building.......with a trap over it inside the building! I don't blame him. That tractor has a lot of meaning to him!

Heck I've got an old M here. Runs the old NH baler and spreads cow poop! Other than it's ability to work it has no meaning to me. I payed 800 for it a few years ago. To me it's a tool, a hated tool! With the wide front it's clumsy! I long to replace it with something with a wide front and power steering! Maybe next week! I've got my eye on a 706D!

Now if I could find my dads R John Deer I'd restore that because my kids have great memories of riding that tractor with grandpa K. They would love to give thier kids rides on it.

Rick[/list]

bobs old iron · Mar 2, 2011

unless your grand-parents bought a tractor new, put in shed under tarts, for 50+ yrs.[that's original]! today, we're restoring them to look original. any part that been replaced, took originality away. i glad TO HAVE a tractor, to take to shows, pulls, etc. having all kinds, rusty looking, repainted, faded [org] paint, etc, is part of owning one. does it really matter what outsider say, that doesn't have their own tractor to brag about. just my opinions/thoughts.

Wilks54 · Mar 2, 2011

If it's a family tractor, my "original" is the way it was when it was operated by a family member. Each one of those modifications, add-on's, or improvements were made with a lot of thought and busted knuckles in the barn or under a shade tree. I like pointing to a welded up piece and saying, "Yes, I know it's welded, but my grandpa made that weld," or not putting fenders on it because Grandpa said they just always got in the way anyways.

For me, tractor restoration is more about honoring the people associated with the tractor and family history than the metal, paint and rubber ever could be. JMO.

Todd Heck · Mar 2, 2011

I use my Bn to plow the snow and do yard work. The A is for the kids to play on since it has turf Tires. I am looking for another farmall that has a bucket to also held with yard work. I see Faster346 you are also in Toledo and to let you know there is alot of farmall people around here.

Todd

Faster346 · Mar 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 18:03:25 03/02/11) I use my Bn to plow the snow and do yard work. The A is for the kids to play on since it has turf Tires. I am looking for another farmall that has a bucket to also held with yard work. I see Faster346 you are also in Toledo and to let you know there is alot of farmall people around here.

Todd

Really? I didn't know of any other Farmall people around here lol..Where in Toledo are you?? And how did you know I was in Toledo? Hahha

Todd Heck · Mar 3, 2011

I agree. Have a few of your books and a few people I met in NW Ohio have their tractors in them also.But I think people would be intrestered in seeing how tractors were changed by the owner to work on their farms. I would love to see a book on different models that was changed like yours. My Bn has a homemade blade that we use around the yard. I don't want to take it to shows because it is not show quality.

FC Andy · Mar 4, 2011

Faster, I'm not from Toledo, but Blissfield, Mi, about 20 miles away. There's lots of old time IH guys around here, And lots that were and went JD years ago. -Andy

Faster346 · Mar 4, 2011

(quoted from post at 15:35:49 03/04/11) Faster, I'm not from Toledo, but Blissfield, Mi, about 20 miles away. There's lots of old time IH guys around here, And lots that were and went JD years ago. -Andy

Not too far at all, neighbor..infact while my home is in a little suburban subvidision in Toledo, our farm is right off of Exit 5 off of 23.

Thoughts on "originality", NOT a rant on being &qu

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