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No oil pressure.

C

CNKS

Well-known Member
Well maybe 5 pounds. Super A, complete overhaul except for the camshaft. Crank ground 0.001 oversize bearings (or undersize depending on how you look at it). Machinest said camshaft was ok. No cam bearings in the C113--I wonder if the surfaces inside the block that the cam goes through could be damaged by hot tanking? Oil is not getting to the rocker arms. Upon startup the gauge will move very slightly, that is all. New gauge, replaced by original gauge. Both work with about 40 lbs of air pressure. Before overhaul there was about 30 lbs of pressure at operating temperature. One oil passage in the block has a couple of set screws, there is oil there. The oil pump has a new oil plate and a new spring. Clearance is within specs according to plastigage. End of gears are slightly worn due to contact with the old plate. The oil pump has a plug in it that I assume is for priming, if needed. It is stuck to the point that I am afraid it will break off. So, I squirted oil in at the top until it was full. The passage to the rocker arms originates at the camshaft. I don't know if it is a direct path. I removed the rocker arms and pushed in a piece of wire -- it stopped below the head, but not as deep as the camshaft. Anyway if it was plugged, it seems pressure would be higher, not lower. In summary I'm lost. Any ideas?
 
I wonder if it could be the same thing that plagues the M some . the guts of the oil pump may be wore out .
 
If it was good before it must be leaking away somewhere. There are not any tube lines inside a Super A are there? And the filter would not let all the pressure get away would it? I am just throwing out ideas here. Is there a soft plug at the rear end of the cam in that engine? But if it was leaking there you would have oil coming out the bottom, right?
 
Does the guage wiggle if you rev it up?

I've had machine shops leave out oil galley plugs. Acts just as you describe.

Hot tanking will eat babbit; nothing else as far as your block goes. The engine doesn't use cam bearings? That seems odd to me.

Hope ya find it,

Allan
 
If the block was hot tanked, it is possible that all the gallery plugs were not re-installed.

I might start by attaching an air hose to any oil plug port and trying to locate a large air leak by ear. You may have to move the tractor out of earshot of your compressor.

If your engine has galleries similar to a Cub, remove the tappet cover and carefully look for a missing plug between the 2nd and 3rd cylinder. There may be another one behind the camshaft gear.
 
Check the the head of the oil pump to make sure it is not worped. I just rebuilt the motor in my A and the oil pump head was worped bad, there for it blew the gasket and had very little pressure. My 504 had the same problem when i got it.
 
If the crankshaft was reground you should not be using .001 bearings. Maybe you meant .010?

Oil pump problems on those engines is almost always blown out gaskets due to warpage on the bottom cover of the pump. Straighten it out, sand it smooth and make a small reinforcement bar to go across the area where it warps.

Priming the oil pump should never be a problem on those engines since the oil pump sits below the level of the oil. They will prime themselves within a couple of minutes of putting oil in the pan.

Since I don't think that you installed the wrong bearings the most likely cause is an oil galley plug left out after the engine was cleaned.

Early blocks did not use any camshaft bearings. The cam rides directly in the block bores. Later engines in that series used a bearing for only the front journal. They all use a bearing for the governor/distributor drive gear.
 
I would say the number 1 reason for these motors to have low low oil pressure is the junk pewter plate at the bottom of the oil pump. I too have had issues with this. I took the plate off the pump, and with the help of wet/dry sandpaper and a piece of glass... I"m up and running again. If anyone makes this plate out of steel, let me know. I"ll buy 2 for sure! Poor design to say the least.
Good luck,
Charles
 
Blow some cigar smoke through a small hose down the rocker oil hole, see where it comes out. I once found a gallery plug that blew out on a truck that way.
Best Regards,
Charlie
 
You need to make up your own reinforcement bar for the plate. Start with a piece of steel 1/2" x 1/4", long enough to span the side of the cover where it warps. They all warp on the pressure/output side of the gears. Drill a couple of holes and use 1/4" longer bolts to mount it to the cover. You will need to make a small notch in it near the center to get it to clear a rib on the cover. I also like to put a small bend in the middle to make sure it contacts the cover in the middle of the span before it gets all the way tight on the ends.
 
The oil pump has a NEW end (bottom) plate. As stated clearance is within spec. Several mentioned missing plugs -- I don't think so but anything is possible, I guess. I don't remember any under the front cover, that is about the only place where if missing that it wouldn't cause a very visible leak? Owen mentioned that the pump would prime within 2 minutes. I have not let it run anywhere near that long. This is only the 2nd engine I have rebuilt. The first was in a 460, it had almost immediate oil pressure. I can't see how the pump could be bad, besides it was working ok before the overhaul.
 
It has a new plate. And the old one was working ok before the overhaul. When it wouldn't prime with the old plate I ordered a new one -- did not help.
 
I don't smoke, and if it was cigars I would probably kick the bucket. But compressed air might work. It should come out of the hole where the camshaft goes. Unless there is an internal plug, but I don't think so.
 
Well the other one worked for 58 years -- oil pressure was about 50-60% or new spec, though.
 
Yes, 0.010. The machinest removed the governor bearing before hot tanking -- that's why I was wondering if the hot tanking could possibly damage the boring in the cast for the rest of the cam holes. I asked above about the 2 minute priming. In rereading I think you meant self priming with the engine off. I have run the engine maybe 15 seconds each time. looking up at the engine with the pan off, I see oil about everywhere (can't see inside the bearings), but that could be just splash from the crankshaft. I assume that if it does not show pressure in a few seconds, it never will?
 
Soft plugs at the rear of the engine -- they would leave a big puddle. If I missed one behind the front cover (I don't think so), I would never see the leak.
 
Can someone tell me if there are any plugs behind the front cover -- I do not think I left any out, but it is one place to look -- although I have to remove the front end, again.
 
The picture in the parts listing does not show the plugs for the oil galley but they are listed under the block assembly. You can see the hole for the rear one in the drawing. There are two expansion plugs, one for the cooling system and the other for the camshaft. there is another hole slightly below that where the galley plug goes. the oil galley goes all the way through the engine and comes out behind the gears. The oil pressure gauge fitting is also connected to the same oil galley as well as the top outlet of the oil pump.

I don't have another block to look at but the front plug would be the most likely to be left out. Like you said, the rear owe would have a heck of a leak by the flywheel.
 
CNKS, Just as thought here.... are you sure the center bolt holding the rocker arms down to head is the correct HOLLOW bolt? This bolt provides the opening for the oil to get to the rocker arms.
 
No plug on front. Why the oil doesent come out the stud for the rockershaft is a mystery. Ive had bunches of those engines apart like you did without any problems. Wth the plugs out so the engine will turn good does oil get to the filter and the plugs removed out of the block one at a time With oil in the pan the pump is below the level so priming shouldnt be a problem. If you use compressed air down the rocker shaft hole can you hear where its going. Been my experiemce with the plug out at the filter area and turning engine over oil come out good.Lots have used something else for the rocker shaft and therefore blocked that passage for oil getting to rockshaft. Mite need to recheck the oil pump assy to see if you made a mistake there but rite now im kinda puzzled. It gots to be something simple just keep digging and let us know.
 
Yes, and I checked the hole to make sure it was open. Another reason to have service manuals, I would not have paid any attention to it otherwise. But, even with the wrong bolt I would have oil pressure but end up ruining the rockers, etc.
 
Pull that pump again & check if the drive gear is tight on the shaft. I think it is held on with a pin that may be sheared off.
 
My first step before starting it the first time was to remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over fast hoping to see oil at the rockers--nothing. I have not cranked the engine with the filter drain plug out, but I have removed the plug shortly after and gotten oil out, along with oil in the accessible passage that is a few inches up in the block. I will keep looking, not eager to disassemble the engine again. Will try the air in the hole to the rockers. Glad to hear there are no plugs in front.
 
Since you had oil pressure before reworking the pump I would pull the pump and check it out. Set it in a clean container of oil and spin the drive gear. It may be bypassing the oil. Hal
 
I am with Wardner, you probably have a plug missing in the block. If the pressure guage moves a little, you are pumping oil. If one of the oil passage plugs is missing, you won't have much if any oil pressure.
 
Certainly possible, but where? Gene Bender says there are none in front, if in the rear or anywhere else external it would leave a puddle. I don't remember any internal ones, if they exist I suppose I could have missed one. Engine was apart for a year while I slowly did the rest of the tractor. I do remember running a brush through them, and blowing with compressed air to see where the air exited.
 
Ask the shop where you had the hot tanking done if they removed any pipe plugs. I think you would see oil dripping if a plug was left out. Hal
PS: Did you remove that relief valve & spring from the pump? I would take another look at that pump.
 
The machinest gave me all the plugs in a box, not saying I got them all in. The pump end plate and spring have been replaced. The valve or spring socket has been out and is not plugged or anything. I have not removed the drive gear and pulled the shaft because I saw no need to, perhaps I should. What I would like to know before I take everything apart is if there are any internal plugs I may have missed. Gene Bender says there are none in front, which will save me from removing the front axle, etc, and the pulley and front cover. If there is one behind the front cover it will not leak externally. I prefer to take Gene Bender's word for it as he has been in there many times, me only once.
 
I would look in that box to see what's left over and if there's any pipe plugs. When I did the Farmall A back in 1975 I didn't have the block hot tanked. I took the block to work and used a steam jenny to clean it. There's a man in SC that's doing a Super A. His name is Sam Eubanks and I'll give him a call to see if he knows about the pipe plugs. He use to post on here, but I haven't seen him lately. Hal
 
Unfortunately, that box is long gone. But, I don't think I would have tossed it until I got all the plugs in. I have several plugs of various sizes, off of more than one tractor, but they are all painted red, internal should be unpainted, and none of them are the small "set screw" type like the rest are to access the passage. If it is not the pump, then the only possibilities is one behind the front cover, or internal somewhere else. I would appreciate the call though -- thanks.
 
I called Sam in SC and he said he removed 2 plugs one on each end. Hal
PS: His block is the 354898R1 block.
 
Sam just called back to say if you rotate the cam gear there's hole in the gear so you can access the hole in the block for the pipe plug.
Hal
 
I have a stripped, tanked, C-113 block in the shop. I'll look at it today, can count the oil passage plugs, and give location.
 
OK, now I have to decide if I want to remove everything in the way of the front cover and see if I put that plug in there. Block # is same as mine. I cannot believe I would have left that plug out -- that would be a large, fully visible hole behind the gear, and I am looking right at it as I install the cam. Stranger things have happened, I suppose. But if true, this one will be a new record. Thanks for the info, if I decide to look as a last resort, it will be a few days. I have no problem disassembling everything once, but I hate twice.
 
Since you had good oil pressure prior to the engine rebuild I think that may be your problem. I wouldn't run that engine until you look behind that cam gear. Hal
 
ok, there is one at the flywheel end and one on the cam end. The one at the cam end would be behind the cam gear. I am willing to bet that is the one that is missing. Would be an easy miss for someone that is not familiar with these engines. Not only that, if it was the one behind the flywheel, you would have oil everywhere. The one by the cam is in the sealed oil bathed area, so no good way to know if it is there or not unless you inspect.

There are 3 holes, 2 are cam retainer bolt holes, and the other is the oil gallery.

As much as it pains me to say it, you are probably going to have to pull the front cover and look. Only way to be safe and sure.

PS. if you pull the cover and the plug isn't missing, I am baffled.
 
Thanks, same answer as El Toro's friend. As I told him, I can't believe I left that out, but I do weird things some time. I probably even pushed a brush through that hole or the rear one, all the way through, to clean it. I'm first going to drop the pan and make one last check on the oil pump. -- then remove the axle and steering mechanism. Thanks again.
 
Probably -- going to start disassembly tomorrow. I sure hope that plug is not installed.
 
If you remove the governor and apply air pressure through the hole where the gauge is installed you should be able to see of hear if the plug is missing.
 
Yes, I'm going to try that, I still have doubts about me not installing that plug. Lot of work only to find I installed it.
 
There is definitely a plug hole behind the cam gear next to the cam retainer plate at the end of the oil galley. 1/4'' pipe I believe. Could be easily missed.
Good luck
Dennis
 
Since you had oil pressure prior to the rebuild I would bet money that plug is missing. That's not the first time that has happened. Hal
 
Somebody asked a similar question several months ago. I was working on my A at the time and I suggested he take off the oil gallery plug under the distributor and run a wire forward to see if that front plug is there. I think that is what he did to verify that the plug was or was not in place. Something to try before pulling the front cover. Roger
 
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